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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 514482 times)

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #720 on: April 14, 2009, 10:53:51 PM »
But i will try to think of rescaling..  The strange thing is that i design in .mm , so somewhere in the conversion from Rhino to DXF there must be an upscaling..
Actually, Rhino just uses the common drafting base unit of 1 being 1 mm.  WM2D uses the base unit of physics of 1 being 1 meter.  No units are passed between the two programs, just the value 1.  They both assign their own units.  Been a problem for CAD guys for years, but mostly between 1 being 1mm and 1 being 1 inch.
My workflow does'n t like scaling. I like the design in Rhino to be an exact copy of the Design in WM2D, so i can adjust or add easaly and quickly new parts.
It sucks!  Making all of your desired changes in CAD, scaling, and then importing takes patience and practice.  If you export out of WM2D to transfer changes from there back to CAD you may loose precision (I did going to ACAD).

I keep one master CAD file.  When I make a change, I save the whole, and then erase everything but the changes, and save again as a temp file.  I then import just the temp file items into WM2D.  If I make a change in WM2D that I want to keep I export,  and use that file as a reference to update my master CAD, but I always redraw in CAD, not just accept the WM2D geometry as part of the CAD.

You can always scale your Rhino back up and down by .001 and 1000 as many times as you want and it does not degrade the precision.  Just another step or three.

I'm sure others have better ways and you will of course find your own.

M.

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Offline 0c

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #721 on: April 14, 2009, 11:18:41 PM »
The ball will not drop straight down if released at the 6 o'clock position.  At that position it is traveling parallel to the surface of the Earth (same direction as an arrow from 3 to 9 o'clock).  Release it there and it will now be able to be acted on by the acceleration of gravity and so its path will arc towards Earth.  If you speed up the wheel to 200 RPM you will be traveling twice as fast in the horizontal when you release at 6 o'clock.  So it will travel further out away from the wheel as it arcs downward due to gravity.

If you want the ball on a clockwise wheel to drop straight down, you must release it at 3 o'clock.  If it does go straight down it would also indicate that the Centrifugal Force disappeared the moment the ball was released as well.  Nice experiment for that purpose I suppose.

M.

I didn't claim the ball would drop straight down. Does the ball exit with enough energy that it can be returned to the top of the wheel? If so we can constantly have weights on one side of the wheel and not on the other side. See how that ball exits at 100 RPM. Can it be returned to the top through some arrangement of chutes? or spings? or teeter totters? How about at 200 RPM?

Just humor me.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #722 on: April 15, 2009, 12:17:52 AM »
Correct. That fixes the problem. I tried it on the several questionable designs. What is this "optimized" anyway? Funny, this change seemed to uncheck the "Prevent the model from running faster than real-time" in Preferences.

Can't help you there - just a novice user - some suggestions about other concerns though - I select 4 decimal places in >view>numbers & units - any part not essential to the operation or investigation I make transparent [>window>appearance>pattern>no] & in properties give it a tiny value of 0.0001 units [whatever units you are using] - then you can go to >view>system center of mass [make other things transparent to see if required] - then using the zoom function you can watch a simplified version of how the constituent parts that have mass & inertia interact & affect the torque etc, & of course, where the system center of mass is in relation to the center of rotation at all times - disregard if this is redundant information.

Keeps things simple, clean & tidy, IMO.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #722 on: April 15, 2009, 12:17:52 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #723 on: April 15, 2009, 12:47:08 AM »
Can't help you there - just a novice user - some suggestions about other concerns though - I select 4 decimal places in >view>numbers & units - any part not essential to the operation or investigation I make transparent [>window>appearance>pattern>no] & in properties give it a tiny value of 0.0001 units [whatever units you are using] - then you can go to >view>system center of mass [make other things transparent to see if required] - then using the zoom function you can watch a simplified version of how the constituent parts that have mass & inertia interact & affect the torque etc, & of course, where the system center of mass is in relation to the center of rotation at all times - disregard if this is redundant information.

Keeps things simple, clean & tidy, IMO.

Thanks a lot. Very useful suggestions. As for "novice user", you can't beat me to that. It's my third or fourth day using this. lol.

Now, having a slight idea as to the workings of this useful (?) engineering tool wm2d, I'm finding that the greatest challenge is the drawing of the intricate parts of Abeling's design. Well, trying to do it in AutoCAD but, boy, that ain't easy for someone like me who has never worked with it. It isn't at all straightforward, let alone intuitive. And you have to click three times more for the same thing you'd do in other drawing programs with ease. Well, I guess the usefulness of the dxf files for a direct CNC manufacturing is the price for studying this cumbersome thing (or the other way round ... whatever).

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #724 on: April 15, 2009, 12:53:49 AM »

Hans,

Do you have any of Constantinesco's patents. Would be interesting to take a look.


Omnibus,

I recall my earlier reply in another thread where Constantinesco's patents granted before 1922-23 era were also asked for, here it is:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3354.msg165174#msg165174

And here is a link to all his patents available at the European Patent Office:

http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResults?locale=en_EP&ST=quick&IA=Constantinesco&compact=false&DB=EPODOC

He had over 300 different patents,  maybe Hans could be of help on pointing to some,  where either the Milkovic setup or the wheel discussed here are in same way involved.  I simply have no time to wade through the 300 patents.

rgds, Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #724 on: April 15, 2009, 12:53:49 AM »
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Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #725 on: April 15, 2009, 12:56:38 AM »
Does anyone know if there is a program like WM2D that can handle 3D?

WM3D  would be nice. i have a new idea.. and i cannot simulate this in 2d i guess..

Anyway does there is a 3D program with similar features around? 

Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #726 on: April 15, 2009, 01:06:10 AM »
Omnibus .. I have a friend who is very experienced in using wm & he's given me a few tips over the years, for ease of management & reliability - one of the things he does is to [as broli & others have suggested] is reduce the iteration factor down as low as bareable & up the calculation accuracy as high as your patience will allow [approx 200-250 frames is a start] - also if you have the message "inconsistent physical constraints" occurring then it usually means that two parts are overlapping - the brief explanation is that no two parts can physically exists in the same space so you get erroneous energy entering the program pushing them apart - take care with the placement of parts by using extreme zoom if you have to.

He also prefers to import odd or complex shapes etc from autocad etc [dxf files etc] rather than build them with the polygon function - I don't use other programs & import but I see a lot here do - he also cross checks results that seem unusual by driving the wm sim via an excel spreadsheet for inputs, as a cross reference - that is, if you want to bother or you think there might be something fishy going on.

His one mantra to me has always been SIMPLIFY, SIMPLIFY, SIMPLIFY - cuts down opportunities for errors & reduces calculation time - often there are multiple ways to simulate the same thing, some less complex than others - if they all give similar results then the reliability goes up, IMO.

If I remember anything else of relevance I'll mention it !

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #726 on: April 15, 2009, 01:06:10 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #727 on: April 15, 2009, 01:07:33 AM »
Now, @Cherryman, you're really sinking into this which is getting to be frightening. The MiB's are really gonna get you this time. lol.

Listen, let's first "replicate" Abeling's patent as close as possible. I'm way off at the beginning of the AutoCAD learning curve, so won't be of any help any time soon. Can you draw the wheel exactly as it is in the patent and then affix it to the barrier of your device EF2000.wm2d, scaled down to 1m diameter? That'll be a good start. No motor, please.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #728 on: April 15, 2009, 01:12:34 AM »
Omnibus,

I recall my earlier reply in another thread where Constantinesco's patents granted before 1922-23 era were also asked for, here it is:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3354.msg165174#msg165174

And here is a link to all his patents available at the European Patent Office:

http://v3.espacenet.com/searchResults?locale=en_EP&ST=quick&IA=Constantinesco&compact=false&DB=EPODOC

He had over 300 different patents,  maybe Hans could be of help on pointing to some,  where either the Milkovic setup or the wheel discussed here are in same way involved.  I simply have no time to wade through the 300 patents.

rgds, Gyula

Thanks Gyula. Hans just sent me Constantinesco's patents. Clearly, however, I'm more interested in the discussion at hand so I'll postpone for now looking into them. Anyway, if what we're discussing is the real thing then it will be a moot point discussing patents such as those of Constantinesco anyway.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #728 on: April 15, 2009, 01:12:34 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #729 on: April 15, 2009, 01:17:11 AM »
@fletcher,

Quote
reduce the iteration factor down as low as bareable & up the calculation accuracy as high as your patience will allow [approx 200-250 frames is a start]

Where do you actually click to do that, especially to control the number of frames? Also where are the data located to export them into Excel?

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #730 on: April 15, 2009, 01:18:50 AM »
Now, @Cherryman, you're really sinking into this which is getting to be frightening. The MiB's are really gonna get you this time. lol.

Listen, let's first "replicate" Abeling's patent as close as possible. I'm way off at the beginning of the AutoCAD learning curve, so won't be of any help any time soon. Can you draw the wheel exactly as it is in the patent and then affix it to the barrier of your device EF2000.wm2d? That'll be a good start.

I have seen so may things come by , you will have to show me again wich of Abelings drawing you mean (He ahas a few different ones i belive?) And I will have to look if i can still find (reproduce) the EF2000 swtup.. I do so many things.. it's getting a bit disorganised.

I will see what i can do.

I don't like replication, because if the clue is there then others will notice, so i follow my own path. Sure sometimes i see things from other designs wich are usefull, but i don't really study the designs, i simply look at them and decide on instinct if it has something or not.

When creating them myself ofcourse there will be influence from what i have seen from others, but by re-inventing it myself i think i might find different approaches or angles.. and i'm stubbern!  ;D


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #730 on: April 15, 2009, 01:18:50 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #731 on: April 15, 2009, 01:37:38 AM »
@fletcher,

Where do you actually click to do that, especially to control the number of frames? Also where are the data located to export them into Excel?

<File>Import/Export     .....    <World>Accuracy>More Choices

Often if we have something of interest we build a physical model & then back engineer the sim to the same dimensions & mass values etc [or as close as reasonable] - then we adjust pin frictions etc until we get a close alignment between real & predictive sim behaviour, as a further cross reference for reliability - so far the behaviour always lines up but I put that down to his skill  ;D   !

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #732 on: April 15, 2009, 01:58:00 AM »
@Cherryman,

Well, it's usual patentees to hide some crucial aspects of the device or the method so that they can control further negotiations through trade secrets. I don't think this case is any different. It's worth I think for the time being to have the device "replicated" in wm2d as close to the patent as possible. See attached Fig.2 from Abeling's patent and the two examples of wm2d (especially one of them) closest to the patent.

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #733 on: April 15, 2009, 02:10:59 AM »
Okey, so you want this design with the blocks from EF2000 , i will see what i can do....

Here is a teaser to keep your mind bussy in the meantime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPgezU4ql58&feature=channel_page

Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #734 on: April 15, 2009, 02:21:07 AM »
If you do some force analysis you can get an idea why these ramp setups won't work. That patent is a joke. Any design that uses a ramp now is patent infringement, that's how vague his patent is and I'm pretty sure is deliberate.

 

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