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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 823405 times)

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #705 on: April 14, 2009, 09:38:06 PM »
The mass of poly 2 was incorrect, I set it to 6 and it worked as it should.

Not incorrect, but just very very small because it was a really thin body.

Really small masses or forces are displayed in scientific notation for example 0.00000001 KG

would be displayed by wm2d as: 1.0e-8 kg

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #706 on: April 14, 2009, 09:41:30 PM »
Tnx, i repaired it myself also.

Here you can see the flying path of the ball...  I think this is the force we seek......

"may the force be with you"  ;D

But... the force to bring up a ball via a ramp will never be enough to bring it up the the same level it started on right?

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #707 on: April 14, 2009, 09:41:36 PM »
Yeah, that's how it's usually presented in the standard texts, as not being a true force and that I don't think is correct. The correct way to express it is exactly the way you've explained it -- it's a reaction (a true force) to the force you apply, spending energy for that, to change the direction of motion from linear. Therefore, energy cannot be "extracted" by using centrifugal force.

mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #708 on: April 14, 2009, 09:46:45 PM »
Not incorrect, but just very very small because it was a really thin body.

Really small masses or forces are displayed in scientific notation for example 0.00000001 KG

would be displayed by wm2d as: 1.0e-8 kg

We might need to be conscious of how many significant digits WM2D maintains.  If it is rounding or truncating after, say, 8 digits, having elements with very large and very tiny property values in the same sim might result in situations where a calculation is performed that exceeds this limitation.  Certain physics predictions might actually become truncated in effect.  One way to prevent this problem (if it exists) is to keep all properties in the same logical range, say like from .0001 up to 9999.

Just a thought.

M.

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #709 on: April 14, 2009, 09:48:35 PM »
Grinzz...  That is the basic of the KAD system al along..  Those are from the drawings i started with.. , my first prototype i built with my daughter from lego and an old harddisk and a few rails was built on this principle  ( didn't work, in case you're wondering)   ;D It seems that we do not only play with circles, whe also a walking around in them  :o

Good ideas take a while to sink in, especialy for bubble heads like me

Thanks for insisting  ;D

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #710 on: April 14, 2009, 09:58:17 PM »
We might need to be conscious of how many significant digits WM2D maintains.  If it is rounding or truncating after, say, 8 digits, having elements with very large and very tiny property values in the same sim might result in situations where a calculation is performed that exceeds this limitation.  Certain physics predictions might actually become truncated in effect.  One way to prevent this problem (if it exists) is to keep all properties in the same logical range, say like from .0001 up to 9999.

Just a thought.

M.

I think it does not truncate but switches to scientific notation for anything with more than three digits after the decimal point..

The bar in the second animation is shown to have a mass of 6.408e+004 or 6.4080 KG or 6408 grams
Then again, it should just have displayed 6.408 kg If I type in just that 6.408 it switches from Standard to custom material. Maybe it does round up to four digits... Who knows?

You know, there is also a switch in there under preferences:

"Prevent model from running faster than realtime" default:on

Hmmmm

fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #711 on: April 14, 2009, 10:09:10 PM »
Stefan et al .. IME rigid joints in WM are fine, providing you choose "measurable" rather than "optimised" in the properties box [double click on the joint or go to menu] - ATEOTD WM is a good tool to aid design & help extrapolate likely behaviour - it does not completely replace physical builds [the real simulation & benchmark] or critical thinking, but it can ease the experimenters burden somewhat - in fact quite a lot IMO.

mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #712 on: April 14, 2009, 10:19:22 PM »
I think it does not truncate but switches to scientific notation for anything with more than three digits after the decimal point..

Could be, but what if it does truncate?  If it is just keeping the four significant digits that are shown (truncating any further digits calculated) then using very large and small numbers together will mean that the small may have zero effect on the large.  Not a small effect as would be correct, but zero.

This may or may not be something to watch out for.  But when you look at the mass of the 320 M diameter wheel and compare that to the mass of the weight balls in some of the earlier sims and you may see the concern.  Keeping everything in the same logical range only helps to avoid this possible issue.

Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #713 on: April 14, 2009, 10:21:02 PM »
Stefan et al .. IME rigid joints in WM are fine, providing you choose "measurable" rather than "optimised" in the properties box [double click on the joint or go to menu] - ATEOTD WM is a good tool to aid design & help extrapolate likely behaviour - it does not completely replace physical builds [the real simulation & benchmark] or critical thinking, but it can ease the experimenters burden somewhat - in fact quite a lot IMO.

Correct. That fixes the problem. I tried it on the several questionable designs. What is this "optimized" anyway? Funny, this change seemed to uncheck the "Prevent the model from running faster than real-time" in Preferences.

AquariuZ

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REPLY FROM DUTCH GOVERNMENT INFO SERVICE
« Reply #714 on: April 14, 2009, 10:22:43 PM »
Uw e-mailkenmerk is 235676.
Geachte heer,

Naar aanleiding van uw e-mail, waarin u vraagt of Abeling Beheer B.V. toestemming heeft van het ministerie van VROM voor de bouw van Gewicht Energie Centrales in Nederland, kunnen wij u als volgt informeren. 

Helaas kunnen wij uw vraag niet beantwoorden. Uw e-mail hebben wij daarom voor verdere beantwoording doorgestuurd naar het ministerie van VROM. Om uw vraag goed te kunnen beantwoorden, is het mogelijk dat de beantwoordingtermijn langer is dan de eerder aangegeven twee werkdagen.

 

Wij hopen dat u hier begrip voor heeft.

 
Met vriendelijke groet,

 
Danny Huf

Publieksvoorlichter Postbus 51 Informatiedienst



TRANSLATION

   
Your e-mail reference is 235676.
Sir,

Further to your e-mail, in which you asked whether Abeling Beheer BV has obtained permission of the Ministry of VROM for the construction of Weight Power Plants in the Netherlands, we can inform you as follows.

Unfortunately we can not answer your question. Your e-mail has been forwarded to the Ministry of VROM for further response .It may be possible that the response time is longer than the regular two days.

We hope for your understanding.

 
Best regards,


Danny Huf

Public Information Officer PO Box 51


Waiting then. (not holding breath)

AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #715 on: April 14, 2009, 10:26:34 PM »
Could be, but what if it does truncate?  If it is just keeping the four significant digits that are shown (truncating any further digits calculated) then using very large and small numbers together will mean that the small may have zero effect on the large.  Not a small effect as would be correct, but zero.

This may or may not be something to watch out for.  But when you look at the mass of the 320 M diameter wheel and compare that to the mass of the weight balls in some of the earlier sims and you may see the concern.  Keeping everything in the same logical range only helps to avoid this possible issue.

You are right ofcourse, Cheryman is still punching out 300 meter diameter wheels.

That would draw some attention from the neighbours, huh.

Cherryman

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Re: REPLY FROM DUTCH GOVERNMENT INFO SERVICE
« Reply #716 on: April 14, 2009, 10:27:23 PM »
Uw e-mailkenmerk is 235676.
Geachte heer,

Naar aanleiding van uw e-mail, waarin u vraagt of Abeling Beheer B.V. toestemming heeft van het ministerie van VROM voor de bouw van Gewicht Energie Centrales in Nederland, kunnen wij u als volgt informeren. 

Helaas kunnen wij uw vraag niet beantwoorden. Uw e-mail hebben wij daarom voor verdere beantwoording doorgestuurd naar het ministerie van VROM. Om uw vraag goed te kunnen beantwoorden, is het mogelijk dat de beantwoordingtermijn langer is dan de eerder aangegeven twee werkdagen.

 

Wij hopen dat u hier begrip voor heeft.

 
Met vriendelijke groet,

 
Danny Huf

Publieksvoorlichter Postbus 51 Informatiedienst



TRANSLATION

   
Your e-mail reference is 235676.
Dear mr,

Further to your e-mail, in which you asked whether Abeling Beheer BV has obtained permission of the Ministry of VROM for the construction of Weight Power Plants in the Netherlands, we can inform you as follows.

Unfortunately we can not answer your question. Your e-mail has been forwarded to the Ministry of VROM for further response .It may be possible that the response time is longer than the regular two days.

We hope for your understanding.

 
Best regards,


Danny Huf

Public Information Officer PO Box 51


Waiting then. (not holding breath)

Good work!

And the story continues...    It's becoming a "thriller"   ;D

Now hope you did not wake up a sleepy government official, who suddenly sees that a lower offical has granded the permission...  now he gets youre request... realisez he impact and calls the MIB..  Poor Sjack..   :o

 ;D

Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #717 on: April 14, 2009, 10:30:07 PM »
You are right ofcourse, Cheryman is still punching out 300 meter diameter wheels.

That would draw some attention from the neighbours, huh.

Size does matter!   ;D

But i will try to think of rescaling..  The strange thing is that i design in .mm , so somewhere in the conversion from Rhino to DXF there must be an upscaling..

My workflow does'n t like scaling. I like the design in Rhino to be an exact copy of the Design in WM2D, so i can adjust or add easaly and quickly new parts.

But for the sake of free energie i will try to not forget scaling.   


spinner

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Re: REPLY FROM DUTCH GOVERNMENT INFO SERVICE
« Reply #718 on: April 14, 2009, 10:32:54 PM »
TRANSLATION   
Your e-mail reference is 235676.
Sir,

Further to your e-mail, in which you asked whether Abeling Beheer BV has obtained permission of the Ministry of VROM for the construction of Weight Power Plants in the Netherlands, we can inform you as follows.

Unfortunately we can not answer your question. Your e-mail has been forwarded to the Ministry of VROM for further response .It may be possible that the response time is longer than the regular two days.

We hope for your understanding.

 Best regards,

Danny Huf

Public Information Officer PO Box 51


Waiting then. (not holding breath)

Thanks for your translation!

I'm not holding my breath, either.  :(  It seems that at least the guy which answered your e-mail doesn't know anything about the Abeling ...

Cheers!

rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #719 on: April 14, 2009, 10:39:28 PM »
I'm not thrilled with calling CF "not a true force", but I have seen it expressed as that, or as a "fictional force".

Lets try this example.  You are driving straight in your car.  If we remove all friction you will continue in a straight line forever.  When you initiate a turn by turning the steering wheel, you feel CF, right?  It pushes you away from the way you want to turn.  But what is really happening is your body is trying to continue in a straight line.  There is no force pushing on you.  So CF is fictitious.  What you notice is the change in direction of your reference frame which is the car.  It turns due to a force, but your body does not want to.  What you are experiencing is a resistance to a change in direction due to a force.

I agree it is very confusing to use those terms.  But it might also be more confusing for the term Centrifugal Force to have ever been used in the first place.  Maybe it should have been the Centrifugal Sensation?

I am from the old school!  CF a fictional force and I shall attempt my explanation as to IMO.

When you are traveling in a straight line, kinetic induced inertia tend to keep the trajectory in a straight path. When you turn the wheel, you are not being "pushed" by CF , but rather pulled by inertia wishing you to stay on a straight path.

Shoot an arrow straight up, ask yourself what roll does CF portray when the arrow runs out of inertia? There is no CF, the arrow stops and then starts it path back to the ground.

A lot of researchers have tried to utilize CF as a means to accelerate a gravity driven device. Plain and simply put there is no CF without inertial acceleration, and a physical CpF containment to keep it radial. 

Ralph Lortie