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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 783648 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #630 on: April 14, 2009, 09:22:55 AM »
@mindsweeper,

Turn the air resistance off this time and the behavior seems to turn somewhat back to normal.

Offline mindsweeper

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #631 on: April 14, 2009, 09:41:50 AM »
@mindsweeper,

Turn the air resistance off this time and the behavior seems to turn somewhat back to normal.

Yes, exactly my point, that should prove the unpredictability of WM2D imho..

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #632 on: April 14, 2009, 09:51:21 AM »
Here are another two, I cannot remember who posted the first one but Stefan posted the second one. Both are WM2D stuff ups.

@ Omnibus

I know if you change almost any parameter it behaves almost normally. This is hardly the point though. If the system gives false results on a pure setting (ie. no outside influences) it will hardly give more reliable results when outside forces enter into the picture. Are you seriously suggesting that the model in question will work as shown in a vacuum?

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #633 on: April 14, 2009, 09:53:19 AM »
Yes, exactly my point, that should prove the unpredictability of WM2D imho..

Take a look at the calculated and displayed velocity and acceleration. There's something very confusing about all this. Someone should explain what's going on. Otherwise it's just a waste of time to model these contraptions. (see attached)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #634 on: April 14, 2009, 09:57:35 AM »
Here are another two, I cannot remember who posted the first one but Stefan posted the second one. Both are WM2D stuff ups.

@ Omnibus

I know if you change almost any parameter it behaves almost normally. This is hardly the point though. If the system gives false results on a pure setting (ie. no outside influences) it will hardly give more reliable results when outside forces enter into the picture. Are you seriously suggesting that the model in question will work as shown in a vacuum?

Correct. That was exactly my point. If you go back some 10-15 pages you'll see that I raised exactly this question about the device working in vacuum. The explanation given was that elements such as springs are not ideal and there are always some losses which in this case are modeled by the air resistance (and I thought I read somewhere in several other ways such as deliberate inducing slight back force, back torque and the like).

The problem is that in this last example (before the two you gave) the "correct" result appear to be when air resistance is turned off rather than on. Go figure.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #635 on: April 14, 2009, 10:01:50 AM »
Perhaps not a complete waste of time Omnibus,

but personally I don't see in WM2D much more than a rough guide. In some configurations it is very good. Put complex polygons into the picture or have too many elements interacting it fucks up. The programme does have a number of bugs regardless of what the WM2D guy says.

Just a couple of cents wort from me.

Hans von Lieven

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #636 on: April 14, 2009, 10:12:11 AM »
Hans,

Your last examples are very interesting but in them one may start imagining things because they are quite complex and in a sense elaborate. Also, one may think that because of their complexity certain stages of the calculations take place out of order and that causes the seeming effect. This last worker.wm2d, however, is really puzzling because it seems as simple as can be and one can hardly suppose that such a simple example would pose any calculating problems. Something must be wrong with the algorithm of the program. Unless that's indeed a real effect. You know, I'm not excluding such circumstances because what we are dealing with are the outmost fringes of what the mainstream considers science and trained scientists won't touch this with a ten foot pole (we know why). So, it very well may be that there's something which simply hasn't been studied or has been ignored for being a threat to one's career in professional science.

No doubt, if it really is a true effect it has to be confirmed by a working lab device in flesh in blood.

Offline robbie47

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #637 on: April 14, 2009, 10:16:58 AM »
Gents,

Here are the drawings from the patent.
I'll post the rest later, since max attachment size is 250KB.

Main text is in Dutch. I can translate this but it will take some time.
(I am Dutch myself)

Offline mindsweeper

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #638 on: April 14, 2009, 10:19:47 AM »
Hans,

Your last examples are very interesting but in them one may start imagining things because they are quite complex and in a sense elaborate. Also, one may think that because of their complexity certain stages of the calculations take place out of order and that causes the seeming effect. This last worker.wm2d, however, is really puzzling because it seems as simple as can be and one can hardly suppose that such a simple example would pose any calculating problems. Something must be wrong with the algorithm of the program. Unless that's indeed a real effect. You know, I'm not excluding such circumstances because what we are dealing with are the outmost fringes of what the mainstream considers science and trained scientists won't touch this with a ten foot pole (we know why). So, it very well may be that there's something which simply hasn't been studied or has been ignored for being a threat to one's career in professional science.

No doubt, if it really is a true effect it has to be confirmed by a working lab device in flesh in blood.

I assume you are talking about my design, it does not work in the real world. I have tried it.

I also posted another (where double post was) without using polygons. I did them about 6 to 8 months ago and Hans pointed out the errors so I made a quick model with stuff I had lying about and the results were negative.


EDIT: this is why I requested a WM2D section for the board but nothing was created, all these topics could have been covered there.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #639 on: April 14, 2009, 10:31:20 AM »
G'day Mindsweeper,

If I remember correctly there was such a thread a while ago. There was not much interest then and it kind of died.  >:(

Maybe now that there is a lot more interest in the programme we should start it again. I for one would be interested.

Hans von Lieven

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #640 on: April 14, 2009, 10:37:38 AM »
Gents,

Here are the drawings from the patent.
I'll post the rest later, since max attachment size is 250KB.

Main text is in Dutch. I can translate this but it will take some time.
(I am Dutch myself)

Have a look back a bit in this thread. Someone already translated it. Not that there is much in it. It's all bullshit anyway. The guy is a wanker.

Hans von Lieven

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #641 on: April 14, 2009, 10:41:31 AM »
@mindsweeper,

I think the topic of MW2D is intrinsic here and it shouldn't be moved elsewhere. For now this is the only possibility to test the ideas we're discussing but we have to know clearly the limitations. Therefore, we need a very clear explanation as to why your device is modeled incorrectly, if that's the case. Of course, I don't doubt your manufacturing and experimental skills but even the most skilled experimenters sometimes overlook things or come upon an interesting fact by sheer luck. That's so typical even when the great minds carry out experiments. So, let's see if someone can come up with a clear explanation as to what's happening with your model. The best would be to have a mathematician specializing in mechanics to write the equations governing the system an prove rigorously that based on classical mechanics what we see isn't possible. That may seem trivial but it isn't unless one is inclined to take for granted that we're done with classical mechanics and there cannot be new findings there.

I did a quick "replication" of your model and you can see, it goes berserk under high speed air resistance, destroying itself. No air resistance seems to calm it down to "normal" behavior. Why is that? (see attached)

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #642 on: April 14, 2009, 10:51:56 AM »
You pay far too much attention to mathematics Omnibus,

The test of a system is experiment, nothing else!

When this is done mathematics can be pulled in to create an analogy to what is happening in the real world.

But that is all it is!

I am not saying mathematics is useless, far from it, but you must bear in mind it is only an explanation of the phenomenon, not the phenomenon itself.

Hans von Lieven

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #643 on: April 14, 2009, 10:52:38 AM »
Nobody seems to have noticed another patent, from 2004, which I uploaded earlier. The idea seems practically the same as Abeling's. Here it is again (see attached)

Wonder what will happen if someone calls the guy and asks for a demonstration? Bet you he's gonna be nowhere to be found. It's kinda weird Sjack Abeling isn't so much reclusive (I, for one, spoke personally with him, as I reported here, to no avail).You may recall about a year or two ago there was a discussion here on these matters -- USPTO issuing perpetuum mobile patents which they claim isn't their job to refute. Their understanding is that if the patent is no good it will simply die out and if someone is so much interested in voiding such non-working patents, the only recourse it to go through the court system.

Offline mindsweeper

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #644 on: April 14, 2009, 10:58:15 AM »
@ Omnibus

That does pick up speed very quickly, I have pondered over this for many months and ended up discounting it due to the many working prototypes I have seen in WM2D. I don't know why the model does what it does but when I originally made the design I wanted to use CF to my advantage and this was the model I came up with.

My modeling capability is not very good and when I say I threw something together I mean that is what I did, if there is something here then it's all open and free for anyone to pick up and run with it as they see fit.

@ Hans

Do you think I should start another thread, perhaps take it over to Besslerwheel ?