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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 782552 times)

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #585 on: April 13, 2009, 05:17:52 PM »
I predict that all computer modelling will be unsuccessful since it uses the laws of mechanics as we know them.


Exactly!  garbage in equals garbage out.

But then I failed at learning auto cad and am 'limited' to cut and try, LOL

Some good posts Sir, a bit fanciful perhaps but no argument from here.

Ron

Offline eisenficker2000

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #586 on: April 13, 2009, 05:34:04 PM »
Computer models are there to simulate reality, after being calibrated and checked by measurements off the practical outcome of the real system, in the real world.

Is Abelings "demo-barn" wheel without weights the real stuff or just an illustration?
Is the patent on purpose misleading, having an Easter egg full of promise without practical functionality?

Patents enough....without working guarantees.
I like the idea of patent, but before allowing it to be registered, it should be technically proven to work, in my simple opinion. And  more wishfull thinking  ::)

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #587 on: April 13, 2009, 05:34:29 PM »
Hi Ron,

Nothing in here about a 'scissor' action. In fact, if there were a scissor action it would seem the additional friction would simply slow the wheel down. Instead, the propelled weight is 'moving faster than the system' (once a critical speed is reached) through the effect of centrifigal force.

Charlie

But the weight and axle are moving from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock in "nearly" a straight line, where is
the centrifugal force?

Looking at the motion from 9 o'clock to 12...the slot width is maintained at the width of the axle,
until the final moment, when because of the hook in the slot the width of the resultant slot closes
off, pinches off, scissors off...spitting the axle out with force, allowing the slow moving axle to
catch up with the fast moving catch pocket!

Ron



Offline noonespecial

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #588 on: April 13, 2009, 06:24:44 PM »
But the weight and axle are moving from 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock in "nearly" a straight line, where is
the centrifugal force?

Looking at the motion from 9 o'clock to 12...the slot width is maintained at the width of the axle,
until the final moment, when because of the hook in the slot the width of the resultant slot closes
off, pinches off, scissors off...spitting the axle out with force, allowing the slow moving axle to
catch up with the fast moving catch pocket!

Ron

Hi Ron,

I was just keying off of his comment that the weights are alledgedly "moving faster than the system".  Again, if what you say is true, then in my opinion this is nothing more than yet another unproven overbalanced wheel assuming there is nothing unique to this design.

Charlie


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #589 on: April 13, 2009, 07:13:35 PM »
Hi Ron,

I was just keying off of his comment that the weights are alledgedly "moving faster than the system".  Again, if what you say is true, then in my opinion this is nothing more than yet another unproven overbalanced wheel assuming there is nothing unique to this design.

Charlie



Greetings Charlie

That is one of the reasons I posted one of my old designs. For if the Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel, would work. Mine would as well. IMO Here is the link to my string with some written improvements for it, if someone wanted to build it. It was on my list to build one day when I didn't have a better design to try. So why not post it on its own string. I feel it has a better than average chance but the average of the over balanced wheel stinks. LOL
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7235.0;topicseen

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in how the Sjack Abeling gravity wheel truly comes out, and I hope for the best. But I am not good at simulations either, so I can't be of much help in that field.

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #590 on: April 13, 2009, 07:38:49 PM »
Hi Ron,

I was just keying off of his comment that the weights are alledgedly "moving faster than the system".  Again, if what you say is true, then in my opinion this is nothing more than yet another unproven overbalanced wheel assuming there is nothing unique to this design.

Charlie


Hi Charlie,

Yes, but the point at which the weights are moving faster than the system is not stated. It is my contention that they are, but after the constriction.

To me, that hook at the end of the slot is the key to the wheel. This is what makes the wheel work. I have been searching for a proper name for this effect that he is using and while it is the most basic mechanical motion it is used so very infrequently. The only analogy that comes to mind is working in a hydraulic press. The “action” we are talking about is not wanted. The two planes are required to absolutely parallel. If one plane is the slightest out of parallel then the forces are not transmitted perpendicular and disaster strikes… the work is propelled out of the press with extreme velocity.

So the weights are in two states, the outer weights at high velocity and the inner  weights at a slower velocity, as they are describing a smaller radius. If, as in previous wheels, the weighs are just feed back into the high velocity circuit they will take energy from the wheel to bring them up to speed. That is why we have never seen a working wheel before. This is why all the syms show a “semi” balanced wheel…. one must factor in the squeeze.

Take a greasy cherry pit between the thumb and bent finger… yes?  It goes a long way, does it not?  This is, or must be, the final action as the slow moving weight is feed back into the high velocity circuit… to give it a little squeeze and spit it back into the higher velocity circuit at speed. 

And you might ask… where is this in the computer models?

Ron

Offline noonespecial

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #591 on: April 13, 2009, 07:58:39 PM »
Greetings Charlie

That is one of the reasons I posted one of my old designs. For if the Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel, would work. Mine would as well. IMO Here is the link to my string with some written improvements for it, if someone wanted to build it. It was on my list to build one day when I didn't have a better design to try. So why not post it on its own string. I feel it has a better than average chance but the average of the over balanced wheel stinks. LOL
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7235.0;topicseen

Don't get me wrong, I am interested in how the Sjack Abeling gravity wheel truly comes out, and I hope for the best. But I am not good at simulations either, so I can't be of much help in that field.

Hi AB,

Good to talk to you again! I did look at your design and quite frankly, I would think that yours has a better chance of working than Sjack's. I would encourage you to build one. And while we are on the subject of builds, here's a shameless self-promotion of my latest one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uKoAwFFwPY

Like you, I am interested in Sjack's design but I won't hold my breath waiting for a press release. At least Bob Kostoff provided a video of his design working. Although, he seems to have been spirited away by the MIB :).

Anyway, I'll keep watching...maybe we'll be pleasantly surprised someday.

Best,
Charlie

Offline rbe

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #592 on: April 13, 2009, 08:13:51 PM »
Hi all,

Just a few questions that popped in to mind. Has anyone thought of the actual dumbell design and might it be essential to make the wheel work as stated by the patent.

* Will the dumbell's spin in a (counter?)clockwise motion to create some extra down force when they are "shot way" at the top position and then land in the end of the slot?

* Are the dumbell's equipped with... for example ceramic ball bearings to make it extra slippery when its in the "scissor" part of the wheel, to make it more like a cherry pip like Ron describes.

Perhaps this has no real relevance for the wheel performance, just some thoughts.

Cheers

Offline noonespecial

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #593 on: April 13, 2009, 08:20:44 PM »
Hi Charlie,

Yes, but the point at which the weights are moving faster than the system is not stated. It is my contention that they are, but after the constriction.

To me, that hook at the end of the slot is the key to the wheel. This is what makes the wheel work. I have been searching for a proper name for this effect that he is using and while it is the most basic mechanical motion it is used so very infrequently. The only analogy that comes to mind is working in a hydraulic press. The “action” we are talking about is not wanted. The two planes are required to absolutely parallel. If one plane is the slightest out of parallel then the forces are not transmitted perpendicular and disaster strikes… the work is propelled out of the press with extreme velocity.

So the weights are in two states, the outer weights at high velocity and the inner  weights at a slower velocity, as they are describing a smaller radius. If, as in previous wheels, the weighs are just feed back into the high velocity circuit they will take energy from the wheel to bring them up to speed. That is why we have never seen a working wheel before. This is why all the syms show a “semi” balanced wheel…. one must factor in the squeeze.

Take a greasy cherry pit between the thumb and bent finger… yes?  It goes a long way, does it not?  This is, or must be, the final action as the slow moving weight is feed back into the high velocity circuit… to give it a little squeeze and spit it back into the higher velocity circuit at speed. 

And you might ask… where is this in the computer models?

Ron


Hi Ron,

I do understand your point. However, in both of your examples (hydraulic press and cherry pit) external force is applied first. This force isn't free and is in fact, directly proportional to the projectile energy produced. Squeeze the cherry pit a little and it only goes a little way. Squeeze it harder and it travels farther. There's no magical additional energy produced from this interaction. If you can show that there is, I would be very interested.

Regards,
Charlie

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #594 on: April 13, 2009, 08:51:06 PM »
Initial try own wheel and guides, cherrymans egg and a modified cherryman barrier.

Initial speed given to wheel around -0.100 rad/s

It will turn without motor for a loooong time (until wm2d limits)

Not being able to reproduce results from yesterday, but that´s prrobably because there is no true "launching" going on..

Model attached

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #595 on: April 13, 2009, 08:53:07 PM »
In both of your examples (hydraulic press and cherry pit) external force is applied first. This force isn't free and is in fact, directly proportional to the projectile energy produced. Squeeze the cherry pit a little and it only goes a little way. Squeeze it harder and it travels farther. There's no magical additional energy produced from this interaction. If you can show that there is, I would be very interested.

This is exactly the source of my concern: even if there is a scissor effect it certainly is not free. The generated momentum caused by the scissor is taken out of the system by friction.

Still continuing to test though...

Offline Cherryman

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #596 on: April 13, 2009, 09:05:24 PM »
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.



Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #597 on: April 13, 2009, 09:17:03 PM »
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.

For someone new to wm2d you deliver the most delicious models

Very creative thinking as well 10/10

Thumbs up!

Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #598 on: April 13, 2009, 09:46:19 PM »
Well...

Introducing the "valve" ..  and "skipping"

To give the ball a shorter path, you will gain speed (time)  So i try to skip one leg every time, by having one ball less then you have spokes..

Here is a (motorized) concept.


Wow this model really shows a lot of promise. I tweaked it a bit by removing the motor, gears, the background wheel (repaced it by rods to hold things together), the masses are of reasonable size and also increased the accuracy. There's a very big tendency for rotation and maintaining that rotation.

Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #599 on: April 13, 2009, 09:55:59 PM »
Looks like I cheered too soon. The frame without the weights seems to accelerate on its own  ;D. I think this was a known problem with custom polygonal shapes.