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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 667671 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #960 on: April 21, 2009, 12:28:45 AM »
Hans and all,
You must calculate into it the small ramp inside the cannel,
as there the forces split into vectors for the horizontal and vertical values.

This also plays a big role, how the balls lay and roll on these small ramps...

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Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #961 on: April 21, 2009, 12:29:25 AM »
Hans and all,
You must calculate into it the small ramp inside the cannel,
as there the forces split into vectors for the horizontal and vertical values.

This also plays a big role, how the balls lay and roll on these small ramps...


Exactly Stefan. Doing some simple vector analysis shows this.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #962 on: April 21, 2009, 12:34:15 AM »
One thing I've just noticed. I've forgotten to delete the earlier construction. It's to the left of the main contraption. I don't see how this would affect the running of the wheel in question, though.

Here it is, corrected (see attached). Renders very slowly so I'm attaching it befire actually running it.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #962 on: April 21, 2009, 12:34:15 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #963 on: April 21, 2009, 12:34:25 AM »
The problem lies with complex shapes like the one below. WM2D goes haywire if you do this. The curved or straight polygon tool in WM2D is unreliable.

Hans von Lieven

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #964 on: April 21, 2009, 12:39:55 AM »
Stefan and Broli,

If you don't believe my torque analysis simply print it out, glue it on a piece of cardboard, cut it out, stick a small coin over where the weights are and put a pin through the centre. You will soon find out which way it wants to turn.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #964 on: April 21, 2009, 12:39:55 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #965 on: April 21, 2009, 12:40:23 AM »
The problem lies with complex shapes like the one below. WM2D goes haywire if you do this. The curved or straight polygon tool in WM2D is unreliable.

Hans von Lieven

Well, again, why would the one polygon be preferable before the other in terms of complexity. Both seem pretty complex. Besides, what is the role of the polygon in the calculations? What is being calculated, it seems, are the trajectories of the balls with the corresponding constraints. So, you mean, wm2d prefers given constraints before others? This has to be understood better.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #966 on: April 21, 2009, 12:42:51 AM »
Stefan and Broli,

If you don't believe my torque analysis simply print it out, glue it on a piece of cardboard, cut it out, stick a small coin over where the weights are and put a pin through the centre. You will soon find out which way it wants to turn.

Hans von Lieven

Well, better yet, replicate Aneling's device. I think @Dusty is doing that and we'll know soon of the outome. The question here is why shouldn't wm2d be of any use for the analysis of a device such as the discussed one?

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #966 on: April 21, 2009, 12:42:51 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #967 on: April 21, 2009, 12:42:53 AM »
Well, again, why would the one polygon be preferable before the other in terms of complexity. Both seem pretty complex. Besides, what is the role of the polygon in the calculations? What is being calculated, it seems, are the trajectories of the balls with the corresponding constraints. So, you mean, wm2d prefers given constraints before others? This has to be understood better.

Omnibus, are you saying that you believe this model works? What makes it different from any other ramp model? You could use slots to remove the whole complexity at once and see it has no tendcy to rotate either way.

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #968 on: April 21, 2009, 12:42:58 AM »
@All,

Check this out. If I haven't overlooked something then that's it. And, let me add, if that's it then @eisenficker2000 rulez!

This should not turn to the left...

 ???

O, Hans already said that

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #968 on: April 21, 2009, 12:42:58 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #969 on: April 21, 2009, 12:43:28 AM »
What I am saying Omnibus is that the more complex the polygon the weirder the programme reacts. I have given up on the polygon tool after too many failures.

Hans

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #970 on: April 21, 2009, 12:47:10 AM »
What I am saying Omnibus is that the more complex the polygon the weirder the programme reacts. I have given up on the polygon tool after too many failures.

Hans

Well, then, how do you propose this to be modeled.

As far as the failures go, all I've seen so far is due to springs, improper settings of the rigid joints and ignoring air resistance (which models internal friction losses). All these problems are excluded in the last model.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #970 on: April 21, 2009, 12:47:10 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #971 on: April 21, 2009, 12:51:58 AM »
Omnibus, are you saying that you believe this model works? What makes it different from any other ramp model? You could use slots to remove the whole complexity at once and see it has no tendcy to rotate either way.

See, I've expressed this belief many times. The crux of the matter is nothing else but the proper construction which would enable displacement under the action of a force. If a proper construction is found that displacement can go on as long as the force is there (and it's always there because it's gravity). Construction is crucial.

As for the slots, you have to show what you mean by that. Could you redraw it with slots?

Oh, and another thing, if you notice the system center of mass is slightly to the right of rotor's axis of rotation.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #972 on: April 21, 2009, 01:03:25 AM »
Here is the proof. What I am saying is correct.

I have mounted the weights on a straight wheel in the correct positions relative to the axle.

If you click run it will turn to the right initially and wobble until it finds its balance as expected.

Hans von Lieven

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #973 on: April 21, 2009, 01:05:40 AM »
OK, cleaned it up a little, resetting speeds and just two balls so you can see.

Goes CCW, slows down, goes CW, slows down. Then the top ball starts spinning on its own.

Hans is right... However, if you made each arm into a single polygon you may get more accurate results.

I do not know why but as I mentioned way back the shape of the curve of the holders is inverted and should be curved towards the outside of the rim, not the other way around.

Omnibus, what were you seeing that prompted you that this may be it?

What were you seeing?

Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #974 on: April 21, 2009, 01:08:45 AM »
Well, then, how do you propose this to be modeled.

As far as the failures go, all I've seen so far is due to springs, improper settings of the rigid joints and ignoring air resistance (which models internal friction losses). All these problems are excluded in the last model.


...and elasticity appearantly.

No wonder they stopped developing wm2d?

 

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