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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 639255 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2115 on: March 02, 2010, 11:18:12 PM »
@fletcher,

Exploring the observed kinetic energy is beside the point. First, you have to acknowledge that the same potential energy gives rise to two different kinetic energies, depending on the construction of the device.

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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2116 on: March 02, 2010, 11:20:18 PM »
Also, it is misleading to keep posting that figure because it is obvious from the experiment that the velocities of the two balls differ, unlike what you're trying to foist on the reader.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2117 on: March 03, 2010, 12:17:21 AM »
One of us needs to do some research omnibus - hmmm, you just came across this recently didn't you !

Some of us did this experiment at school but perhaps didn't realise the full implications way back then, then again maybe they did - what I did know was that I could use the same ball mass on different tracks & measure their impacts against a spring etc - that was the days before video camera's were commonplace - hmmm, perhaps you could try it & report back ?!


Quote from: omnibus
Also, it is misleading to keep posting that figure because it is obvious from the experiment that the velocities of the two balls differ, unlike what you're trying to foist on the reader.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 12:40:06 AM by fletcher »

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2117 on: March 03, 2010, 12:17:21 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2118 on: March 03, 2010, 12:43:56 AM »
One of us needs to do some research omnibus - hmmm, you just came across this recently didn't you !

How about you? You can't understand to this moment that the velocities of the two balls differ despite the fact that the videos (the research) clearly demonstrate that fact. Amazing isn't it?

Think physics. Never mind variational calculus and never mind how recent that new fact is for you.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2119 on: March 03, 2010, 12:50:31 AM »
Quote
Some of us did this experiment at school but perhaps didn't realise the full implications way back then, then again maybe they did - what I did know was that I could use the same ball mass on different tracks & measure their impacts against a spring etc - that was the days before video camera's were commonplace - hmmm, perhaps you could try it & report back ?!

You did that experiment at school and you thought you realized its full implication way back then but, as seen, you were wrong. That isn't just a variational problem, as you were made to believe. There are physical implications to this experiment which you obviously missed and now are unwilling to accept.

And, again, impact has no place in this discussion. Kinetic energy is only a function of m and v and impact, practicality, transfer and what not don't pertain to it. That may be news to you but that's how physics correctly treats kinetic energy.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2119 on: March 03, 2010, 12:50:31 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2120 on: March 03, 2010, 12:51:39 AM »
Strange wasn't it ? - all those interesting video's on U-tube & no one bothered to comment on what they were observing with a commentary - you could put that right omnibus with your own video - remember to measure the kinetic energy [ahem, I mean velocity] across the finish line - maybe just run the ball up an incline & see how high it gets.

Then you can 'foister away' with authority.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2121 on: March 03, 2010, 12:58:24 AM »
Strange wasn't it ? - all those interesting video's on U-tube & no one bothered to comment on what they were observing with a commentary - you could put that right omnibus with your own video - remember to measure the kinetic energy [ahem, I mean velocity] across the finish line - maybe just run the ball up an incline & see how high it gets.

Then you can 'foister away' with authority.

Not across the finish line. Try to understand that. Velocity of the two balls differs because one of them travels longer distance for a shorter time. Again, observe the entire physical path of the balls, not just the finish line.

Also, the fact that no one but Omnibus has noticed so far the physical implications of that well known variational problem is no argument against the fact that physically it is a clear demonstration of CoE violation (of its "transformation" aspect).

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2121 on: March 03, 2010, 12:58:24 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2122 on: March 03, 2010, 02:11:05 AM »
Not across the finish line. Try to understand that. Velocity of the two balls differs because one of them travels longer distance for a shorter time. Again, observe the entire physical path of the balls, not just the finish line.

Also, the fact that no one but Omnibus has noticed so far the physical implications of that well known variational problem is no argument against the fact that physically it is a clear demonstration of CoE violation (of its "transformation" aspect).

Congratulations on two counts - first proving that a ball rolling down an initial steep track accelerates up to speed quicker than one rolling down a flatter initial incline - that's because if you use vector analysis & plot the x & y coordinates & resultant forces you find that the track inclination is less of a net impediment to the balls rate of acceleration, resulting in .. dadaa - higher average velocity - secondly, for referring to yourself in the third person   ;D

I guess I won't wait for your video - I will await with interest your math paper describing this insight - I don't think myth busters will be interested - just not enough mass street appeal to hold an audience for long [ratings you know], though I'm sure Jamie & Adam would whip up a couple of wire tracks with bolling balls in less than an hour.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2123 on: March 03, 2010, 02:17:02 AM »
You're saying nothing new, so nothing to congratulate me for. The problem, again, is that you can't understand the physical implications of what you're describing. That's not a small problem, as you may think. Ignoring violation of CoE, especially when it is pointed out to you in no uncertain terms, is a big problem of yours and you have to deal with it somehow (hint: don't await math papers to describe inherently physical problems).

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2123 on: March 03, 2010, 02:17:02 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2124 on: March 03, 2010, 04:10:45 AM »
Well, I guess by now there must be plenty of people astounded by the fact that a ball can roll down a slope & arrive with the same velocity as an identical ball on a completely different shaped track - and that the ball that took the longer track got there quicker with an average velocity that was higher than the shortest direct route from A to B - of course that scenario doesn't apply to balls taking the longer track above the shortest route from A to B so it wasn't the track distance that was important - must have been its initial steepness.

No matter, what you're proposing has no practical application anyway because that's not how energy is accounted for to do work.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2125 on: March 03, 2010, 04:31:16 AM »
Again, what many people are astounded by now is not the claimed equal velocity at the end point by the two balls on different tracks. What many people are really astounded by, and you try to run away from it, is the fact that one of the balls arrives sooner at the finish along the longer track despite the fact that both balls start with identical potential energies. That's the astounding fact, repeated over and over again. That's a clear violation of the "transformation" aspect of CoE. That's the shocking part never mind its practical implications. Practicality is never a criterion to judge for or against the validity of a scientific fact.

And, don't repeat that accounting of energy to do work. That has nothing to do with the principle of conservation of energy. Of energy, mind you.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2125 on: March 03, 2010, 04:31:16 AM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2126 on: March 03, 2010, 06:35:44 AM »
Good luck with your epiphany omnibus - now practically apply it.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2127 on: March 03, 2010, 06:49:05 PM »
Good luck with your epiphany omnibus - now practically apply it.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2128 on: March 03, 2010, 07:35:33 PM »
Omnibus, you are confusing this thread. Misinformation agents are paid very well to do less.

Average velocity says nothing about terminal velocity, and thus not over energy out vs in.

Take 2 U-formed train tracks. Steep down first, then flat, then steep up. Friction is zero. I will tell you that the wide u brings a higher averga velocity. Terminal velocity at lowest most point, is however identical. End velocity at the ends up the u, also. Even in these points is lower than the starting point.

You cannot give an example that defies the aforemention rules. Height dictates velocity along the track path, as unfortunate or unfair as that may seem. Time and horizontal distance are interesting to study, but bring nothing. No energy forms are converted there.
In the real world of positive friction, sure result can differ a bit. Friction however doesn't make a ball roll up higher than it started.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2129 on: March 03, 2010, 07:42:38 PM »
@fletcher,

[snip]

Like I said, violation of CoE in this case consists in the very fact that one given quantity of gravitational potential energy can be transformed in different quantities of kinetic energy.  The graph you've given is good but it only demonstrates what I just said.

 

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