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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 676677 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2070 on: February 26, 2010, 04:47:14 PM »
M

From point A to point B with the same amount of "fuel" [the drop]
The long road ball gets more done "faster"[does more work "quicker" with the same amount of Fuel]
I did not know this was possible ?

And I don't know of anyone that has used this extra "Zip" in a wheel.

I believe that to be Omni's point.

Chet
PS
That being said ,if the above is true and not a scam [the Vids]
No one has come forward to say this is Bogus.
Omni has a "Very" good point. Abeling said his "idea " is nothing New
Just overlooked or forgotten.

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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2071 on: February 26, 2010, 05:02:48 PM »

From point A to point B with the same amount of "fuel" [the drop]
The long road ball gets more done "faster"[does more work "quicker" with the same amount of Fuel]
I did not know this was possible ?

And I don't know of anyone that has used this extra "Zip" in a wheel.

I believe that to be Omni's point.


I believe you are correct.  But as Fletcher indicated, in order to use this extra "Zip", you have to tap into it while that extra speed exists.  At the end of the ramp, there is no extra speed.  And if you tap into it anywhere else, you have tapped into it where the ball on the longer track is lower that the ball on the straight track.  Siphon off any of that higher velocity and what happens at the end of the track?  Either the ball will not have enough velocity left to reach the end of the track or it will reach it with less velocity than the ball on the straight track (even if it might still get there faster).

So the extra "Zip" must assist with the rotation of a wheel but not impart any energy to it somehow as far as I see it.  This would seem impossible, or at least counter-intuitive (as John Collins might say).  So it is something at least to contemplate, I'll give you that!

Offline ramset

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2072 on: February 26, 2010, 05:13:12 PM »
M
perhaps a faster "arrival time" will make a difference in some part of the the wheel?

Chet

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2072 on: February 26, 2010, 05:13:12 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2073 on: February 26, 2010, 05:18:21 PM »
perhaps a faster "arrival time" will make a difference in some part of the the wheel?
Chet,

That is the part worth contemplating!

M.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2074 on: February 26, 2010, 05:41:17 PM »
Chet,

That is the part worth contemplating!

M.

Very much so.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2074 on: February 26, 2010, 05:41:17 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2075 on: February 26, 2010, 05:44:11 PM »
@mondrasek,

Quote
But at the end of the tracks, both balls are at the same height again.  How did the ball on the longer track get back to this height?  It had to go back UP at some point(s) along the track.  At each point it was going up it was slowing down.

It never slowed down to such an extent as to arrive at the same moment as the other ball. Its overall velocity is obviously greater and that's what matters.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2076 on: February 26, 2010, 05:48:30 PM »
@mondrasek,

Quote
And the ball gets to the end faster, but with the same exact final velocity as track #1.

That also isn't obvious, not that it matters. The ball on track #2 has had greater overall kinetic energy than the ball on track #1, obviously.

It's not about tapping into it. @Fletcher has to recognize first the obvious fact that one of the balls has greater overall kinetic energy than the other despite the fact that their initial gravitational potential energy is identical. Tapping into this difference is a separate discussion.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2076 on: February 26, 2010, 05:48:30 PM »
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Offline Robotan

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2077 on: February 26, 2010, 06:03:11 PM »
@Omnibus

As far as I can see, friction is an important part of the equation. Static friction is greater than dynamic friction. The ball on the straight, slightly inclined, path experiences almost only static friction as it only rolls. The ball on the other track however, experiences much more free-fall, and thus more dynamic friction. Now to the key part:

Depending on what kind of friction the balls experience, they will begin to rotate. Thus the total energy of a ball at the end of a track will consist of its rotational kinetic energy + its movement kinetic energy.

The ball on the straight path gets more of the potential energy put into its rotation. The ball on the other track will not rotate as much, and will thus "move" faster.

At the end of the day, both balls "contains" exactly the same amount of energy. It is merely divided between rotational+movement.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2078 on: February 26, 2010, 06:07:13 PM »
That also isn't obvious, not that it matters. The ball on track #2 has had greater overall kinetic energy than the ball on track #1, obviously.

@Omni, no it is not obvious that both balls have the same velocity at the end of their respective tracks.  But it is, in fact, the case.  At least when I performed these experiments as required for college freshman physics labs.  The KE at the end of the tracks is exactly the same.  At certain locations along the path, one ball may have more KE than the other, but this is because it is also lower.

It's not about tapping into it. @Fletcher has to recognize first the obvious fact that one of the balls has greater overall kinetic energy than the other despite the fact that their initial gravitational potential energy is identical. Tapping into this difference is a separate discussion.

The only time the ball on the longer track has greater velocity (KE) than the ball on the straight track (at same horizontal distance from the start) is when it is LOWER than the ball on the straight track.  So it has converted MORE PE into KE at that location. 

The balls start with the same PE.  The ball on the longer track drops lower faster and so converts MORE of the available PE to KE sooner. 

At the end of the tracks, both balls have converted the same amount of PE to KE, albeit over different lengths of time.  Their velocities at the end are the same.

So the only thing we have is a greater average and instantaneous velocities (KE) on the longer track.  But at no time was a reservoir of PE converted to more KE than expected.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2078 on: February 26, 2010, 06:07:13 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2079 on: February 26, 2010, 06:26:19 PM »
@mondrasek,

There's no doubt that one of the balls has more overall kinetic energy than the other although they start with the same potential energy, correct? There is no doubt therefore that one of the balls has extra kinetic energy if the entire trip is considered. If that extra kinetic energy isn't showing at the end of the trip then it has to have been converted into something else along the way. The fact remains, however, that the ball with the extra kinetic energy arrives sooner than the other ball. Therefore, it hasn't been converted into any other form of energy (hasn't been lost) but is indeed used to bring the ball sooner at the end point even though, in addition, the path is longer. Thus, either your freshman physics experiment has to be re-done more carefully or there is an explanation other than the ball being lower when having higher KE--if the increase in KE were only because the ball gets lower then it would've been exactly compensated when the ball gets back higher and we won't see it arriving earlier than the other ball at the end point.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2080 on: February 26, 2010, 06:47:31 PM »
@mondrasek,

Quote
But at no time was a reservoir of PE converted to more KE than expected.

To understand that the above statement is incorrect consider the entire journey. Don't focus on the instantaneous velocity. If you do that you'll understand that the video shows exactly the opposite to what you're stating, namely, an initial reservoir of PE is converted to more KE in one of the balls compared to the other. Indeed, although the physical path one of the balls actually travels along is longer the physical time for reaching the end point is shorter. Distance over time is nothing else but velocity and that means that the overall velocity of two balls of identical mass has been different. Two balls of identical mass having different velocity have different KE--same amount of PE has been converted to two different amounts of KE which is contrary to what you're stating. 

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2080 on: February 26, 2010, 06:47:31 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2081 on: February 26, 2010, 06:55:35 PM »
There's no doubt that one of the balls has more overall kinetic energy than the other although they start with the same potential energy, correct?

One ball can have more KE at any point along the path, but not at the end.  This has been proved experimentally ad nosium.

For example, have the long track begin as a straight slope that drops the entire height difference at half the horizontal length.  It would then run out straight and level the second half of the horizontal length.  A ball rolling down this ramp would gain the entire PE to KE conversion in half the horizontal travel, and be moving faster than the ball on the "short" track at that location.  But it would not gain anymore velocity on the second half of it's level track.  It would get to the end of it's track quicker.  But the ball on the short track would continue accelerating until it reached the end of it's track.  It would be in second place, but when it got to the end, it would have the same exact velocity/KE as the first ball.

This is the whole concept behind the definition of a "Conservative Field of Force".  Easily demonstrated.  If the video experiments did not end with the balls being caught in a basket, but instead allowed them to drop a short distance (or go up a ramp), you could see that both balls travel the same distance horizontally before hitting the ground (or up the ramp).  If you disagree, I recommend you try the experiment.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2082 on: February 26, 2010, 07:02:41 PM »
@mondrasek,

Before going further you have to agree with the obvious fact that the overall kinetic energy of one of the balls is greater than the kinetic energy of the other ball. Never mind the KE at the end point. We'll discuss that later. First agree that the obvious is indeed obvious.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2083 on: February 26, 2010, 07:32:13 PM »
@mondrasek,

Before going further you have to agree with the obvious fact that the overall kinetic energy of one of the balls is greater than the kinetic energy of the other ball. Never mind the KE at the end point. We'll discuss that later. First agree that the obvious is indeed obvious.

Sure, when you agree that when this is the case, the ball with the greater overall kinetic energy has moved vertically lower than the other ball by a distance that accounts for that increase in KE.  Please agree to this obvious fact.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #2084 on: February 26, 2010, 07:43:47 PM »
@mondrasek,

That's not the obvious fact that I ask you to agree with. You talk about part of the distance traveled while what is to be considered is the entire distance traveled. Therefore, you have to agree first with the obvious fact that the entire distance has been traversed by the first ball for a shorter time than the time which the second ball needs to traverse its entire, shorter distance.

In other words, you have to agree first that, considering the entire distance traveled, the first ball has higher velocity, that is, has greater KE than the second ball, despite the fact that both ball have the same PE to begin with.

Do you see, you can't escape acknowledging the above obvious fact, no matter how you try to finagle?

 

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