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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 667403 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1365 on: May 10, 2009, 03:49:10 AM »
Just curious, what does 'eisenficker' stand for?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1366 on: May 10, 2009, 05:16:52 AM »
Hans, do you mean to say the Dutch government and all the companies working with Sjack Abeling are just plain stupid?
Can so many people be so stupid?

If you do a search on,"Groningen" they list all the projects in the district, both completed and pending... there is no mention of any "weight power plant"

Here are two examples..."Highly Efficient Natural Gas-Fired Plant
Advanced Power plans to build a power plant fuelled only by natural gas with a capacity of 1,200 MW. The CCGT (combined cycle gas turbine) project will reach an efficiency of up to 60%, which will make it one of the most efficient power stations in the world.

This morning (Tuesday, the 6th of May) the longest high-voltage cable in the world was successfully put into operation: the NorNed cable between the Netherlands (Eemshaven) and Norway (Feda), with a length of 580 kilometres. The cable has a capacity of 700 megawatt"

So I would appreciate any news item on Abeling's plant.


Ron

« Last Edit: May 10, 2009, 05:41:13 AM by i_ron »

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1367 on: May 10, 2009, 05:25:20 AM »
There is no such unbalanced wheel in Abeling's patent howevermuch you want to see it that way. Abelings patent is Patent Nonsense!

Hans von Lieven

Not often that I agree with you, but this is one of those times.

Perhaps what people are seeing is similar to the three ball
design where it is obvious the center of mass is on the left
and the 'wheel' will rotate CCW until the left two balls are on the bottom, NOT, it is a balanced wheel, as is the patent.

Ron

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1367 on: May 10, 2009, 05:25:20 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1368 on: May 10, 2009, 05:27:48 AM »
Not often that I agree with you, but this is one of those times.

Perhaps what people are seeing is similar to the three ball
design where it is obvious the center of mass is on the left
and the 'wheel' will rotate CCW until the left two balls are on the bottom, NOT, it is a balanced wheel, as is the patent.

Ron

That's not the case here, as I already explained.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1369 on: May 10, 2009, 05:38:23 AM »
If you do a search on,"Groningen" they list all the projects in the district, both completed and pending... there is no mention of any "weight power plant"

Ron

Don't get it. Do search for what? You suggest there might be a governmental project under the name "weight power plant", is that it? Someone must be out of his mind to have suggested that the government would fund such a thing. Where has this been suggested?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1369 on: May 10, 2009, 05:38:23 AM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1370 on: May 10, 2009, 05:49:37 AM »
Don't get it. Do search for what? You suggest there might be a governmental project under the name "weight power plant", is that it? Someone must be out of his mind to have suggested that the government would fund such a thing. Where has this been suggested?

"Abeling Beheer has been given permission by the Dutch government to construct Weight Power Plants in The Netherlands, and it has been given permission to connect these plants to the current infrastructure."

(water management is a second place priority...RP)

"The construction of the first Weight Power Plant is expected in May 2009.
The location for the construction of the first Weight Power Plant is probably going to be the province of Groningen, the Netherlands."

http://mooieenergie.nl/

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1371 on: May 10, 2009, 05:53:17 AM »
"Abeling Beheer has been given permission by the Dutch government to construct Weight Power Plants in The Netherlands, and it has been given permission to connect these plants to the current infrastructure."

(water management is a second place priority...RP)

"The construction of the first Weight Power Plant is expected in May 2009.
The location for the construction of the first Weight Power Plant is probably going to be the province of Groningen, the Netherlands."

http://mooieenergie.nl/

And, why do you construe this to mean that this is a governmental project and that the government has to report on the net about its progress which we can find using a search engine?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1371 on: May 10, 2009, 05:53:17 AM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1372 on: May 10, 2009, 06:51:49 AM »
And, why do you construe this to mean that this is a governmental project and that the government has to report on the net about its progress which we can find using a search engine?

Did I at any point say, or even insinuate, that this was a government project?

My response was to tink who said,"Hans, do you mean to say the Dutch government and all the companies working with Sjack Abeling are just plain stupid? Can so many people be so stupid?"

See? he says "government working with S Abeling" This is not
grounds to label this a government project, but rather as my
quotes show... if the government has given permission, then
this is co-operating. I was assuming that everyone would be
able to comprehend that just a search on 'groningen'
would lead only to hotels and tourist destinations, but in the
interests of brevity, I failed to say "groningen power plant"
or "groningen weight power plant" which brings up what
seems to be their 'chamber of commerce' which is very proud
to toot the horn for all the wonderful happenings... in our
particular field of interest, the weight power plant.

But alas, either it is not happening now, or it is so well
hidden that no one has heard of it, or.... it has failed a test.

Incidentally the only mention when you type in "groningen
weight power plant" is this list!

My good friend in southern NL tells me he has never seen
this on the news or met anyone who has heard anything
about it, hence it would be a delight to have someone
report on this as an actual event.

Just because I fully support Hans is no reason to be belligerent
with me. Please note that we both say "the patent" won't
work... not the wheel won't work.

Just eyeball it...the power stroke can only be from 2:00 to
5:00, which is three (spaces on the clock face) where as the
returning weight has to travel through nine spaces. Where is
this free lunch coming from? I already pointed out that at 3:00
with a two to one ratio the outside weight (the driving power)
will lift nearly two left hand weights... but ONLY HALF the distance of the outside weight. So the left hand weight must
be made to travel two times its law of the lever distance!
where are you getting this input from?

Ron P






Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1373 on: May 10, 2009, 11:36:27 AM »
True, between 2 and 5 is the only time on the right where a weight does work.
However, between 6 and 12, not all this time is work required from the 12-6 side. This obviously because of the bottom ramp. So, the work done 2-5 is not restricted. We see that in @Dusty's setup, when a weight reaches 5:00, the wheel has energy sored to give the weight at 9 a nice sling. It almost makes it over the top ramp. As the last 10% of a weight's straight vertical launch take up a huge part in weight, I feel that getting the top ramp right will be most essential at approximating a full revolution, and subsequently infinite next ones. In Abeling's/Dusty's sling, the basic principe attempted seems to be converting wheel inertia an a little bit of vertical momentum in the weight, into mainly horizontal momentum. The CF that come to play here should aid the weight in finding the end of the wheel's slot. The conversion seems to only have to manage just that. The intense sling in Dusty's machine may be "over the top" (pun intended), more than is necessary, and at the same time more than is possible. Well, that last part is a fact, but its cause may well have been in his wheel/weight/friction ratio, as long as we cannot determine whether the concept is faulty or not.

To calculate the "balance" in Abeling's wheel may be more than just taking a few sample positions and looking at weight balance. We really need to listen to Einstein, and take velocity into account.
If someone runs the calcs, perhaps suppose a really heavy wheel (to reach a fairly constant wheel speed), or an really powerful motor turning it. Track a weight all around the wheel, and tally up energy taken/given. This will be quite complicated, as at the top, the weight will be pushing the wheel, at an angle through the slot. Pushing an being pushed is alternated through a revolution, and for 6-8 or so, neither actually occurs. Harder to tell, but the same may be valid to some extent 11-12.
Last remark on position vs velocity and acceleration : there may be "bad" spots for the weight to find itself in, but at first glance, in Dusty's wheel the weights are spending awefully little TIME in these positions. If anything makes this wheel turn, it's being at the wrong place at the wrong time, for a very short time. And being in the right place, for as long as possible.

About that powerplant licence.
You should know that due to the increasing power costs over the past decades, farmers all over The Netherlands have bought/built windmills. The modern white ones, towering their garages. It came down to a cost saving for most, in the relatively short term. There were subsidies involved even, I think, as the government promotes renewable energy.
You know our country is quite flat, and the winds are always there. At times, the farmers saw overcapacity, which they were then able to sell to the power company. Some farmers actually net a power INCOME rather than having a power BILL. They naturaly take their windmills quite seriously, farming in The Netherlands is all but a sure thing for prosperity.
I can only assume that you'll need a licence to be allowed to sell power to the grid. I would not be surprised if Abeling's second or later proto managed to produce electricity conforming to the regulations. Part of his world presentation may be the negative use bills received from the power company, as a means of dramatic evidence.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1373 on: May 10, 2009, 11:36:27 AM »
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Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1374 on: May 10, 2009, 12:02:08 PM »
Hi all,

I do think that we overlook something here: The G-max at 06:00.

I'm not in to math and formula, so I have to ask somebody who know about this, to find the answer:

– At 06:00 the G-max force will have a push-down on the outside ramp (oval guide).
– We also experience at 06:00, that there is an enormous drag downwards on the wheel and its axle (slowing the wheel?)
– How does that influence on the friction and velocity (of the weight and on the wheel)?
– If we take away this additional G-max force, then how high could the weight roll?
– Is it possible to harness this additional force?

Perhaps this illustration of an experimental setup better explain what I'm talking about.

The 'Egg' curve is standing freely on the ground (able to tip).
Egg working like both as a lever and beam itself.

At the top left, the Egg curve rising will be catched, so the weight can continue rolling forward and up-hill on an incline plane.

How far will the weight roll up-hill?

Will we have an impact at the top left?
And how big?

ruggero

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1375 on: May 10, 2009, 01:47:08 PM »
@i_ron,

Quote
Just eyeball it...the power stroke can only be from 2:00 to
5:00, which is three (spaces on the clock face) where as the
returning weight has to travel through nine spaces. Where is
this free lunch coming from? I already pointed out that at 3:00
with a two to one ratio the outside weight (the driving power)
will lift nearly two left hand weights... but ONLY HALF the distance of the outside weight. So the left hand weight must
be made to travel two times its law of the lever distance!
where are you getting this input from?

This analysis is incorrect. I have shown how to analyze this properly: in this kind of wheel as Abeling's the center of mass is persistently to the right of the axle which makes it permanently unbalanced, always tending toward equilibrium but never reaching it. It's difficult to take advantage of this in practice because forces of friction counteract efficiently that tendency. The goal is to overcome this difficulty through skillful engineering and have the desired effect demonstrate itself.

And, again, don't expect the government to meet this with fanfares splashing it all over the internet. The opposite is expected to happen as has happened throughout the whole history -- hide it and suppress it, never to be heard again.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1375 on: May 10, 2009, 01:47:08 PM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1376 on: May 10, 2009, 02:41:47 PM »
And, again, don't expect the government to meet this with fanfares splashing it all over the internet. The opposite is expected to happen as has happened throughout the whole history -- hide it and suppress it, never to be heard again.
Sure? We have some serious wind mill parks. recently opened on on an articial island 10km out of the coast. Politics in The Netherlands are not too hot on coal and nuclear.
The mentioned gas energy plant sits on a pretty huge gas field BTW. I think if you're going to take it from the earth, you might as well make sure it's turned into energy the most efficient and clean way currently available. But that's for another topic to comment on.
If Abeling's idea works, then Dusty and Eisenficker are going to confirm it. I rate them just as high as Abeling technically, and the idea came to them for free, plus they have the luxury of this forum to feed them with advice. If it works, we'll need little time to establish WHY it works, and create some good open source alternatives, to avoid patent infringement. Abelings seems to have patented his construction, not the reason why it works. It may be a relatively simple formula he devised first (having been sought for centuries), and then built a machine around.
A moving lower ramp has been suggested before, to harness CF from the weight at 6:00. I suppose a directional shift would be needed to release that force later during the more vertical path of the weight. Then, it may not be necessary at all.
The tighter curve upwards is generating greater vertical speed than had the weight remained on the wheel, while at the same time saving on torque by taking the inside path. That's something.

Offline eisenficker2000

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1377 on: May 10, 2009, 03:32:25 PM »
I have done some old fashioned calculating, for a static situation, so no WM2D or sims just some AutoCAD geometry and vectors.

I have found a resulting torque, okay about the same as produced by the #3 weight (counting counterclockwise with the top weight as #1), but still it is there
So the wheel should start by itself if the friction is less then the calculated forces...

Torque calculated as in the  drawn state of the wheel.

Vectors calculated, constructed axial and radial to their tracks (white).
Radial Vectors translated to center of wheel (green).
Taken G=10 with weights of 27 grams.

L= length of arm(meters), F= Force (Newton), Clockwise = negative.
T= Torque (Newton meters)

1 L = 0.0687 m   F = 0.072 N  T = 0.0049464 NM
2 L = 0.0424 m  F = 0.231 N  T = 0.0097944 NM
3 L = 0.0319 m  F = 0.262 N  T = 0.0083558 NM
4 L = 0.0361 m  F = 0.216 N  T = 0.0077976 NM
5 L = 0.0556 m  F = 0.106 N  T = 0.0058936 NM
6 L = 0.0700 m  F = 0.191 N  T =-0.0133700 NM
7 L = 0.0700 m  F = 0.270 N  T =-0.0189000 NM   
8 L = 0.0700 m  F = 0.191 N  T =-0.0133700 NM
            ----------+
             Total Torque =-0.0088522 NM   ---> Wheel starts Clockwise


Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1378 on: May 10, 2009, 03:33:01 PM »
@Cloxxki,

You’re assuming there’s a formula that has been sought for centuries but that’s exactly what powers that be are making you to believe (this idea is obvious and it very well may be that it has been accomplished many times in the past only to be suppressed) in order for them to push their inefficient nuclear power stations and wind mills, not to say the oil industry and patents enslaving everybody. What we’re talking about is the most anti-business, therefore, anti-patent and anti corporate as anything can get. Therefore the government will never in a million years encourage its development. What’s expected to happen if this turns out to be practically applicable is for the government to ban production of energy in this particular way – through perpetuum mobile – because it will destroy everything else, including the society as we know it. Drugs are banned this way, aren’t they? Anything has to be their way and nothing freeing you from their iron grip would ever be allowed. So, don’t give me these examples of what the good government is doing for the energy policy and don’t worry about patents. No patent can ever be endorsed by any agency of the powers that be unless you think they are stupid and love self-destruction. They are not.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1379 on: May 10, 2009, 04:34:09 PM »
@eisenficker2000,

Your calculation of the overall torque differs slightly from that of @mondrasek and I think yours is the correct one. When finding the component of the force perpendicular to the arm to calculate the torque @mondrasek uses in all cases the total weight if the sphere. You are first decomposing that weight into two components one of which is the vector tangential to the track. It is this component from which you then find out the component perpendicular to the arm. This is the right way to do it because, indeed, if the sphere is left on its own it will slide along the track under the action of the tangential component of the weight.

It would be really useful if you can write a script to carry out these calculations automatically so that you can observe the result at the different positions of the wheel. That would be a really valuable proof for the viability of the device and can be compared quantitatively with the other, even simpler test, revealing the persistent sideways shift of the mass center with respect to the axis of rotation. At this point wm2d can give very easily results from that latter test for the different positions of the wheel and it makes it a really valuable tool in this respect.

 

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