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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 667496 times)

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1350 on: May 09, 2009, 11:36:03 PM »
@Cloxxki the slots are wider then the 3 mm axle of the "Diabolo" weights. The weights rotate and are pushed/rolled outside by that. Yes there is friction, but as there is no load on the wheel, it is free running, it should be overcome.
Thanks for the drawing, it's closer to what I meant to recommend that I expected from the picture.
I meant the wider slot suggestion allow the weight to perhaps roll up the ramp further before this momentum is use to accelerate the wheel. To use speed as long as it's there.

Perhaps my idea of a folding rod has some merit after all, to get away from the two weights always being in one line with the axle. At least, if your setup cannot be made to work as hoped.

The top ramp might be converting (I can't calculate or simulate that unfortunately) the last bit of momentum all in height. If the hump was just lowered and flattened some, perhaps more speed would be carried. With any speed almost, I'm pretty sure the end of the slow would be found well before dropping below the axle again.
If anyone can simulate this or easily substitute the slotted wheel plates, I'd wonder about a mimimalist hockey stick hook, with the remainder of the stick wider especially past the hook, and curved, outside pointing in the wheel's rotation direction.
In you setup, the weight *seems* to start pushing the wheel again pretty much right after being unhooked, or am I getting that wrong?

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Offline spinner

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1351 on: May 10, 2009, 12:01:20 AM »
A balanced wheel once put in motion will spin forever if there is no force acting against it. ie. in an ideal or perfect system.

Hans von Lieven

Of course! And the pendulum under ideal conditions would work perpetually, too. And they would both be a 3rd td law breakers, just like the superconducting ring with induced current.
Once started, it would "go forever", perpetually... (never mind the energy needed for start, or maintaining the conditions for performing (high vacuum, ZeroF bearings, cryo-cooling, ..))
Hell, even (some) "overbalanced" concepts would work if there was no friction, air/bearing/.. resistance, etc...

Sadly, such devices (or perpetuum mobiles of the third kind) would not be very useful....
As soon as you tap into such a source, it would stop (sooner or later, depending how much energy one put in initially...)

I'm a bit old-fashioned, so I prefer the 1st law Perpetuum mobiles... The ones which should produce eternal/surplus/useful work (or, create energy).... ;D


Thanks to guys like Mondrasek and Hans.. I admire your patience and persistence explaining things, especially when you try to answer the posts like this...

Quote
...
Center of mass is persistently to the right of the axis of rotation according to the wm2d, therefore, this must be a perpetuum mobile if we are to believe the program....
...
The decisive factor proving perpetuum mobile is the observed persistent discrepancy in the position of the axis of rotation and the center of mass....
...
The program seems to be correct on that and it's proving unequivocally this device is a perpetuum mobile, at least in the ideal case. I've repeated this multiple times and I'm saying it again because, unfortunately, you don't want to hear it....
...
If these centers are correctly placed by the program (as they seem to be) at the different moments of turning of the wheel and if they always stay sideways to one another at any position of the wheel, that's a definitive proof that the device is a perpetuum mobile. Interestingly, that's exactly what's observed with the model of Abeling's device.
...
The conclusion is that the model of Abeling's rig is a perpetuum mobile at least in the ideal case....
...
One also doesn't need the ramp. Just the slotted wheel and the spheres, positioned where they would be if the ramp were present, is enough for the conclusion (the ramp, by the way is very light and practically doesn't contribute to the calculation of the center of mass). This can be repeated for different positions of the wheel within its full turn only to observe that the center of mass is positioned always sideways to the pivot. That clearly is a proof that the device is a perpetuum mobile. Simple but categorical criterion....
...
This has to be studied more now that we know that perpetuum mobile is possible in principle....
...
No, no, we're discussing an ideal situation. No resistance, only masses and gravity. It's a perpetuum mobile, no doubt about that....
...
Reality of perpetuum mobile has already been proven beyond doubt theoretically. What remains now is to see it as a working model. I don't doubt that it has been done in the past but many fall for the propaganda and repeat its mantra that it hasn't been done before. That's just propaganda. It has and that can be confirmed at once theoretically....
...
For a device such as the one we're discussing to be a perpetuum mobile the mass must be off center at all positions of the wheel making it always a self-starter. Such self-starter won't work only due to poor engineering....
...

Ah, Omnibus.... Fascinating...

Cheers!

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1352 on: May 10, 2009, 12:38:52 AM »
A balanced wheel once put in motion will spin forever if there is no force acting against it. ie. in an ideal or perfect system.

Hans von Lieven

No, I said what the condition is. A balanced wheel when not put in motion not only will not spin forever but will not spin at all. Unbalanced wheel, on the other hand, even if not set in motion will spin forever when let go from a standstill if correctly engineered, let alone if the conditions are ideal.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1352 on: May 10, 2009, 12:38:52 AM »
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Offline 0c

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1353 on: May 10, 2009, 12:47:46 AM »
Unbalanced wheel, on the other hand, even if not set in motion will spin forever when let go from a standstill if correctly engineered, let alone if the conditions are ideal.

Seems to me an "unbalanced wheel" will seek the position of maximum entropy, which just happens to be "balanced". Once that is achieved, there is no more motion.

... according to conventional thought, anyway

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1354 on: May 10, 2009, 12:53:52 AM »
Seems to me an "unbalanced wheel" will seek the position of maximum entropy, which just happens to be "balanced". Once that is achieved, there is no more motion.

... according to conventional thought, anyway

Learn first what entropy means before attempting to use such big words.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1354 on: May 10, 2009, 12:53:52 AM »
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Offline spinner

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1355 on: May 10, 2009, 01:10:43 AM »
Seems to me an "unbalanced wheel" will seek the position of maximum entropy, which just happens to be "balanced". Once that is achieved, there is no more motion.

Yep.. Can we also say the "keeling" effect? The natural relaxation, spontaneous seeking of the minimum potential energy, the point of rest, reaching the "punctum quietus", etc...
Or, Natural tendency for relaxation? Sofa, TV, anyone?  ;D

Of course, there might be mechanisms which drives the Universe continuously... Perpetually.
Who said that the existence is just a one way path from max energy to max entropy? Why couldn't be a cyclical process? Perpetual?
Eh... Nevermind.
Cheers...

Offline 0c

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1356 on: May 10, 2009, 01:33:14 AM »
Learn first what entropy means before attempting to use such big words.

Here's one definition:
"a non-conserved thermodynamic state function, measured in terms of the number of microstates a system can assume, which corresponds to a degradation in usable energy."

Here's another:
"a measure of the partial loss of the ability of a system to perform work due to the effects of irreversibility."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

The heavy side of the unbalanced wheel will settle to the bottom and no further work will be done.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1356 on: May 10, 2009, 01:33:14 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1357 on: May 10, 2009, 01:49:22 AM »
Here's one definition:
"a non-conserved thermodynamic state function, measured in terms of the number of microstates a system can assume, which corresponds to a degradation in usable energy."

Here's another:
"a measure of the partial loss of the ability of a system to perform work due to the effects of irreversibility."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

The heavy side of the unbalanced wheel will settle to the bottom and no further work will be done.

Instead of posting definitions whose meaning escapes you try to put some effort in systematic learning. This you won't be able to accomplish in a forum such as this no matter how much you push to attract attention so that  someone finally attempts to explain it to you.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1358 on: May 10, 2009, 02:15:38 AM »
No, I said what the condition is. A balanced wheel when not put in motion not only will not spin forever but will not spin at all. Unbalanced wheel, on the other hand, even if not set in motion will spin forever when let go from a standstill if correctly engineered, let alone if the conditions are ideal.

Incorrect.

An unbalanced wheel will not spin, even in an ideal system, unless there is an outside force acting upon it. If there is no outside force it will behave like a pendulum.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1358 on: May 10, 2009, 02:15:38 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1359 on: May 10, 2009, 02:37:14 AM »
Incorrect.

An unbalanced wheel will not spin, even in an ideal system, unless there is an outside force acting upon it. If there is no outside force it will behave like a pendulum.

Hans von Lieven

That's exactly what an unbalanced wheel is not. Outside force is substituted by the persistent violation of the lever rule. That's the very essence of unbalance wheel.

Before getting into this more complicated case, the case of unbalances wheel, you should understand first that a balanced wheel when not put in motion not only will not spin forever but will not spin at all. This you don't seem to get.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1360 on: May 10, 2009, 02:56:46 AM »
@All,

Those who are reading this exchange shouldn't be misled by the semantics which Hans likes to play with. This isn't a literary conversation and it is well known in what sense the term unbalanced wheel is used here -- unbalanced wheel in this conversation is a wheel whose center of mass is always to the right (in the discussed case) of the axis of rotation for any thinkable position of that wheel. One such wheel is the one in Abeling's patent. Such wheel, even without an external impetus, always seeks equilibrium and never finds it.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1360 on: May 10, 2009, 02:56:46 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1361 on: May 10, 2009, 03:11:26 AM »
@All,

Those who are reading this exchange shouldn't be misled by the semantics which Hans likes to play with. This isn't a literary conversation and it is well known in what sense the term unbalanced wheel is used here -- unbalanced wheel in this conversation is a wheel whose center of mass is always to the right (in the discussed case) of the axis of rotation for any thinkable position of that wheel. One such wheel is the one in Abeling's patent. Such wheel, even without an external impetus, always seeks equilibrium and never finds it.

There is no such unbalanced wheel in Abeling's patent howevermuch you want to see it that way. Abelings patent is Patent Nonsense!

Hans von Lieven

Offline Tink

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1362 on: May 10, 2009, 03:16:45 AM »
Hans, do you mean to say the Dutch government and all the companies working with Sjack Abeling are just plain stupid?
Can so many people be so stupid?

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1363 on: May 10, 2009, 03:23:06 AM »
There is no such unbalanced wheel in Abeling's patent howevermuch you want to see it that way. Abelings patent is Patent Nonsense!

Hans von Lieven

That's some opinion of yours which contradicts the evidence.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1364 on: May 10, 2009, 03:44:40 AM »
@eisenficker2000,

In these five wm2d files (attached below) you may see five different positions of a wheel similar to yours with the same mass as yours and eight spheres also having same mass as your weights. These files are only intended to observe the position of the center of mass with respect to the axis of rotation and in no way are they intended to be seen spinning, using wm2d. While wm2d can correctly calculate and place the center of mass (which is the crucial parameter we're interested in) it is unfit for other simulations in our case.

As seen, unlike a pendulum-like wheel which seeks equilibrium after being deflected from it, having the center  of mass sway to an fro from right to left side vs. the pivot and back, in this wheel (the model of your wheel) the center of mass is persistently to the right of the axis of rotation no matter what the position of the wheel. That's the good part. That's a proof that your wheel is indeed a perpetuum mobile.

The bad part is that the discrepancy in the mass center and axle positions is quite small and that, being the driving phenomenon, will probably be insufficient to overcome prominent friction forces which even a brief look at your rig suggests.

Therefore, in addition to efforts to reduce these prominent friction forces efforts seem to be necessary to optimize the desired persistently-unbalanced performance of your wheel. One way is to decrease the mass of the wheel itself and increase the mass of the weights. Another, more involved way is to seek optimal track-guide relationships and that is the very essence of this project, isn't it?

Good luck and don't give up. Even a watchmaker can't produce a quality watch just like that and this pursuit is even more involved.

 

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