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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 668806 times)

Offline Tink

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1275 on: May 07, 2009, 05:10:30 PM »
"I am comfortable with the limited abilities in this one to show that the Abeling wheel as it has been modeled is simply a balanced wheel."

No it is not a balanced wheel!
Is it so hard to see?
When all weights were on the outside of the wheel it would have been balanced, but they are not.
It is sooo simple, is it maybe too simple?
Take a wheel with 8 weights and calculate all the forces of the weights and you will see what is going on.
A shame WM2D has such a hard time calculating it.
I think Dusty will beat WM2D by just making the darn thing in real life.
Go Dusty go!

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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1276 on: May 07, 2009, 05:38:02 PM »
No it is not a balanced wheel!
Is it so hard to see?

Actually I think it is just hard to see that it IS balanced.  This wheel is a bit tricky to just eyeball.  You have to consider several things about each weight:

1)  Is it naturally trying to spin the wheel CW or CCW?
2)  How far from the axle in the X direction since Torque = Force x this distance?
3)  How much of the force due to each weight is acting to produce Torque?  This last one depends on the angles of the weights against the slots and guides.

Add them up and you get zero torque.  But it is definitely not easy to see if you are not considering all three of the factors above.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1277 on: May 07, 2009, 06:23:37 PM »
But a flexible chain wrapped around a "D" shape doen't spin out of control. Just sits there.
Or would you contribute that to a shifted centre of rotation?

Abeling's wheel is also less simple than balanced or imbalanced wheel.
Weights are inserted on top, with exactly the rim's speed.
Keeping overall wheel acceleration out of the picture, the weight exist the wheel at 6 o'clock and roll up, losing momentum, before being caught back up by the wheel, which both re-accelerates the weight up to rim speed, and lifts it for the last part.

I can't get my mind to grasp, to which extent, a weight rolling up a ramp without loading the wheel, shortly taking a slight radial advantage (as I think it is), creates a positive imbalance.
Whichever way you look at it, the weight ends up on the outer top of the D's belly, in the exact same place as the previous rotation.

Dusty's first wheel, in all it's crudeness, does see the weight reaching a very good high already on the first self-started rotation. It SEEMS like a matter of perfecting the weight's path and the system's friction, and it'll push that weight right over the top, and all the way into that slot.
When on weight has reached 12 o'clock, the other is already some way up, albeit close to the hub.

Should Dusty's bigger next generation wheel work, we should together use the knowledge gained to create a machine owrking off the same principle, but working around the patent, respecting Abeling's great invention. His invention and the patent system should not hold up free energy to reach he masses when the first workable machine is confirmed.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1277 on: May 07, 2009, 06:23:37 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1278 on: May 07, 2009, 06:32:00 PM »
@mondrasek,

See, what the whole thing amounts to is just conflict of beliefs, not objective scientific proof. Despite your tendency to carry on your belief a little further, which is only natural because mechanical devices don’t exhibit the claimed unusual behavior, conservatively wm2d doesn’t prove conclusively anything either way.

If one ignores wm2d and considers your three points as a criterion for whether or not that’s an unbalanced wheel, they are also not a clear-cut proof that it isn’t. Due to the constraints (as you correctly point out – slots and guides) it isn’t at all evident that the generalized force times generalized distance on the right hand side isn’t different from that product on the left-hand side. It isn’t as if you just have a bunch of weights on the left and on the right freely acted upon by the force of gravity. If it were that then the answer is straightforward. Here, however, it seems to be evident that the vertical component on the left is greater than that on the right, despite the seemingly shorter distance to the pivot. So, intuitively, based on your points, one may conclude differently from what you’ve concluded.

It was for a program to calculate precisely at every possible disposition of the elements that balance. Unfortunately, instead of that wm2d only gives us opportunity to reinforce earlier held beliefs, rather than conclusively prove one way or another.

Would be great if you could show at what mutual disposition you think the elements reach equilibrium and show analytically that the torques on the left and right at that disposition become equal in magnitude. Not a bad idea is to also show an earlier disposition whereby that torque inequality reverses sense compared to a disposition of the elements after the equilibrium one.

Offline spider4re

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1279 on: May 07, 2009, 06:50:59 PM »
Just a thought outside the box, instead of a guide that the weights follow, how about a flexible guide that is driven by the wheel itself? as the weight approaches the "guide" which could be a belt similar to a belt on used on a car engine (maybe grooved so the weight has something to catch onto) the weight hits it and is assisted up to the point where dusty has shown that the weight shoots itself to the end of the curved groove. Might this help reduce friction (although take a toll on torque as the wheel will (through a flywheel setup) run this conveyor belt.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1279 on: May 07, 2009, 06:50:59 PM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1280 on: May 07, 2009, 06:57:17 PM »
Post removed by poster on account of nonsense.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1281 on: May 07, 2009, 07:02:54 PM »
But a flexible chain wrapped around a "D" shape doen't spin out of control. Just sits there.
Exactly!  Let's think about that.  The parts of the chain on the wheel (curved part of the D) are creating a torque.  How much torque?  Well the piece at 3 o'clock is heading straight down, so all of its mass is causing a torque on the wheel.  And the torque due to that one piece is enough to lift exactly one link in the vertical part of the D equally.  They balance.

But what about the pieces of the chain on the wheel at around 1 o'clock?  Most of it's weight is just resting on the wheel.  Only a small portion is creating torque.  And so it is not creating enough torque to lift one piece vertically.  So there needs to be more pieces on the curved section in order to lift the ones in the straight section.  And in every case and configuration, those pieces falling balance those you are trying to raise.  With just the weights, slots, and ramps, that is exactly the same as Abeling's wheel sim.

Dusty's first wheel, in all it's crudeness, does see the weight reaching a very good high already on the first self-started rotation. It SEEMS like a matter of perfecting the weight's path and the system's friction, and it'll push that weight right over the top, and all the way into that slot.
When on weight has reached 12 o'clock, the other is already some way up, albeit close to the hub.

It seems so all right.  How high the weights are raised shows how good the build is so far.  But what is actually keeping Dusty's wheel from spinning is the exact amount of energy he is loosing due to friction and other losses.  If he gets rid of all those losses, the wheel will spin forever!  It will spin exactly at the speed that you initially spin it.  But it will not accelerate.  And it will decelerate if a load is applied.  It will be a flywheel, not a gravity energy conversion wheel.  (No disrespect Dusty.  You are doing a beautiful job.  I envy your talent and resources.  I'd love to do that more than sims myself!)  Every improvement that Dusty makes will move the weight closer to going over the top.  Every mistake in his adjustments will bring it the other way.  But he will never get it to the top, let alone have it go over.  Not without something else.  And maybe he'll figure out what that something else is along the way and tell us all!  And so I wish him luck.

M.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1281 on: May 07, 2009, 07:02:54 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1282 on: May 07, 2009, 07:13:04 PM »
@mondrasek,

What is needed is something simpler than what wm2d tries to do. We don't need calculations for hundreds of frames to show something spinning. Calculations at two dispositions of the parts, one before and one after the equilibrium one is all we need. Is there a program that can do that or probably wm2d may do it somehow and it will spare confusing it with too many calculations per unit time?

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1283 on: May 07, 2009, 07:25:40 PM »
See, what the whole thing amounts to is just conflict of beliefs, not objective scientific proof. Despite your tendency to carry on your belief a little further, which is only natural because mechanical devices don’t exhibit the claimed unusual behavior, conservatively wm2d doesn’t prove conclusively anything either way.

You are correct.  I believe that when every test shows a balanced wheel with the exceptions of understood computational errors, this proves the sim to be a non-runner.  You believe it does not.

Would be great if you could show at what mutual disposition you think the elements reach equilibrium and show analytically that the torques on the left and right at that disposition become equal in magnitude. Not a bad idea is to also show an earlier disposition whereby that torque inequality reverses sense compared to a disposition of the elements after the equilibrium one.

I could easily do the calculations.  Only problem I have are the ellipses in the model.  When I export them out as DXF, they become diamonds.  So the DXF definition used by WM2D is not recognized by AutoCAD.  If I draw ellipses in AutoCAD, they are slightly different in shape.  So I need a way to export that particular sim geometry.  Or would you accept if I replace those ellipses with the ones from AutoCAD for purposes of the analysis?  I can't put them into the sim, since WM2D does not recognize the DXF ellipses of AutoCAD either.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1283 on: May 07, 2009, 07:25:40 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1284 on: May 07, 2009, 07:53:42 PM »
@mondrasek,

Quote
You are correct.  I believe that when every test shows a balanced wheel with the exceptions of understood computational errors, this proves the sim to be a non-runner.  You believe it does not.

See, that shouldn't be if the analysis is rigorous. Laws of classical mechanics applied here are understood well individually, it's only their acting in concert for all the parts that may bring about a surprise and so far wm2d doesn't allow us to count it out.

As for the calculations, I think it'd be interesting to see your methodology first so I'd be curious to see calculations done the way you can do them for the moment.

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1285 on: May 07, 2009, 08:15:30 PM »
A weight going fast in enough to in theory and zero resistance just reach 12 0'clock on it's rolling up a ramp, will cover the first half of the height much quicker than the wheel.

Example :
5m tall wheel
10m/s rim speed.
The weight could gain 5m vertically in 1.0 second and then stall.
The first half to axle height however, it would cover in less than half the time then on the wheel.
The wheel takes 0.39s, the ramp 0.29s plus losses.
The difference comes from the exponential nature of acceleration. This leads me to think that the wheel will be more efficient as speed increases.

Abeling seems to use this <0.1s gained (at axle heaight) as stored energy to sling the weight back onto the rim with speed to spare, bumping the rim.

I am SO hoping that this is IT...
Abeling in the video did say his finding it quite simple and logical, it could have been invented 200 years before. And perhaps it even was...

Brain fart, let me know if its worth its own thread.
-Weights on rods, a central axle.
-1/4 rod length from outside, a joint that folds the rod old full revolution between 6 and 12. The weight takes the inside path. 2 ways about this: with and against the rotation of the wheel. The fluent line seems logical Between 6 and 9, rods could even be disengaged freewheeling up on their own power if need be. The rod's folding action would be complete at 12 o'clock. This could be either with great or with low velocity, depending in the joint's chosen rotation direction.

At 9, the weight would have saved the machine torque but also already match the 9 o'clock rim by speed and direction despite sitting at half the rod length from the axle. Has such a system been simulated before that you know of? I've never done one.

I've seen some Bessler related pictures of some sort of joints, were those explained or proven to not work?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1285 on: May 07, 2009, 08:15:30 PM »
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Offline 3decimal14

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1286 on: May 07, 2009, 08:16:38 PM »
Very interesting things on this matter at this site:

From: http://magnetism.otc.co.nz/Flywheel.htm (Flywheel)
"We must first recognize that in a "sling shot" or a rock twirling system, if we put a small amount of accelerating energy into the final turn, the rock gains over unity energy."

/Tommy

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1287 on: May 07, 2009, 09:12:58 PM »
Very interesting things on this matter at this site:

From: http://magnetism.otc.co.nz/Flywheel.htm (Flywheel)
"We must first recognize that in a "sling shot" or a rock twirling system, if we put a small amount of accelerating energy into the final turn, the rock gains over unity energy."

/Tommy

No, so far there's no evidence to that. Why should we recognize such a thing? There's no end to the confusion on this matter.

This is an interesting observation, though, that needs attention:

Quote
... when opposing forces meet they do not cancel. Even though a net zero energy may be present, both forces are still very much present.  You cannot just add them together get zero and then forget about them for the offset force interaction. Thus a 90 degree force redirecting both will be shifting this higher energy off centered on two sides of the balance, and now each side must be observed before summing the result.

and the text under the diagram:

Quote
Vector addition
Diagram of vetor addition

Resulting force is the sum of all the vectors of acceleration present. The red lines are after the first step of this process where we add each opposing force one at a time to the offset force at 90 degrees to find the resultant equivalent vector of energy. This means that the resulting offset force will be the sum of both resulting forces. If the two are equal then there is a doubling of the deflected energy. The vector tangent to the wheel must have its length doubled. As long as this vector model is true, the circle will be in an over unity state, drawing energy from the time domain [higher density compression area] and placing it into the motional vector of the wheel.

Here C and c are the two forces equal in magnitude but opposite in direction, while a is the 90 degree offset force. How this translates into a practical overunity device is still unclear, however.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 09:42:17 PM by Omnibus »

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1288 on: May 08, 2009, 03:46:54 AM »
It is a balanced wheel. 

When one looks at the patent drawing and sees the right hand
weight twice the distance out from the axle, one immediately
assumes the logic that this will power the wheel.

What is not immediately obvious though is the simple fact that
the outside weight will travel 100% while the inner weight will
only travel 50% of that same distance. Thus at all points in
the Abeling wheel as the ratio changes from 2.375:1 to 1:1
the wheel is fairly well balanced in the dynamic mode.

Thus the patent as drawn will not work.

Ron

Do I need to clarify that? Take a teeter totter with the two
weights as at 3:00 and 9:00 and 2:1, while the right hand weight drops 1 meter the left hand weight will only rise .5 meter.

Yet in the time period that the Abeling right hand weight
goes from 12:00 to 6:00 so does the left hand weight have
to travel from 6:00 to 12:00 so it's motion has to be geared
up 2:1 to achieve this, as compared to the TT.

Still not well written... but I hope you catch my drift... it is
no surprise then that wm2d didn't know which way to rotate
the wheel...





 
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 05:06:42 AM by i_ron »

Offline Obelix

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1289 on: May 08, 2009, 10:15:44 AM »
Hello,

What did you think of this one ?

 

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