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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 668237 times)

Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1200 on: May 02, 2009, 03:49:22 AM »
Sense of rotation is the least of our worries.

Oh, damm, I must have missed the earlier Omnibus ignore the inventor memo, since the patent and the inventor states the rotational direction is extremely important.

Regards, Larry

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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1201 on: May 02, 2009, 04:29:40 AM »
Oh, damm, I must have missed the earlier Omnibus ignore the inventor memo, since the patent and the inventor states the rotational direction is extremely important.

Regards, Larry

No it isn't. It's what it naturally is, nothing more than that.

Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1202 on: May 03, 2009, 01:44:35 AM »
@All,

Analyzing Sjack statements: ‘Due to the invention of the dual lifting system, the falling/pushing weight will hardly be hindered by the weight that has to be lifted.’
and ‘Extra force is generated in the lower left of the system’

In FIG 4, weight 3-7 is starting to lift. The angle between the oval guide and the horizon is 30 degrees and the curved radial guide is perpendicular to the oval guide.

This would be considered an inclined plane and the weight force would be distributed so that 50% would be against the curved radial guide and 87% on the oval guide.

Weight 3-8 has an angle between the oval guide and the horizon is 45 degrees. The weight force would be distributed so that 71% would be against the curved radial guide and 71% on the oval guide.

Weight 3-9 has an angle between the oval guide and the horizon of 60 degrees. The weight force would be distributed so that 87% would be against the curved radial guide and 50% on the oval guide. 

The dual lifting system may be the combination of using the fixed oval guide and the curved radial guide to share the lift requirement. As this is playing out the lever advantage is increasing with each movement. By 3-10 it is around 2 to 1.


From the patent: ‘A constructive implementation of the simple conversion device is obtained when the guide means at least one placed next to the carrier, is essentially parallel to the plane or rotary motion include extended ring, which the weight of each motion.’ This is hard to understand due to the translation, but it may be emphasizing the need to be parallel to the oval guide and perpendicular to the curved radial guide.

The fact that the oval guide is perpendicular to curved radial guides is very interesting. I had tested a similar inclined plane previous but it did not run because it did not stay perpendicular and the decrease in angle caused a pinching effort which stopped the unit.

Also, Dusty had a problem with the hockey sticks guides due to pinching effort in the lower left. They did not stay perpendicular to the oval guide.  I think that the hockey sticks need a different radial guide design to maintain the perpendicular orientation in the lower left quadrant.

Regards, Larry

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1202 on: May 03, 2009, 01:44:35 AM »
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Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1203 on: May 03, 2009, 10:57:20 AM »
The angle between the oval guide and the horizon is 30 degrees and the curved radial guide is perpendicular to the oval guide.

This would be considered an inclined plane and the weight force would be distributed so that 50% would be against the curved radial guide and 87% on the oval guide....

Larry,

Is this what other prefer to call "grooves"?

ruggero ;)

Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1204 on: May 03, 2009, 03:10:18 PM »
Larry,

Is this what other prefer to call "grooves"?

ruggero ;)

Yes, sorry about the confusion, I was using the name from the short patent translation that had the figure drawings.

Regards, Larry


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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1204 on: May 03, 2009, 03:10:18 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1205 on: May 03, 2009, 05:04:48 PM »
Larry,

Is this what other prefer to call "grooves"?

ruggero ;)

ruggero,

The use of the word groove confused me also...

A groove generally has a bottom and does not go all the way
through...

" a long, narrow cut or indentation in a surface, as the cut in a board to receive the tongue of another board (tongue-and-groove joint), a furrow, or a natural indentation on an organism."

Another example would be..." a vee belt runs in a groove"

So Larry's terminology is good english if the "groove" callers
would take note, thanks

Larry, good observation on the inclined plane!

Ron
PS: generally a slot goes all the way through as in a coin slot,
or mail slot. Whereas a grove generally has a bottom and two sides as in the following graphics... of a coin slot and a deep groove ball bearing...but english does have it's peculiarities... as for example, a slot car racer runs in a groove!



« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 05:40:39 PM by i_ron »

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1206 on: May 03, 2009, 06:13:25 PM »
 ;D Thank you Larry and I-ron,

I fell enlightened...

Now I will call a 'cut-all-the-way-through-guide-track' a slot.
And call a 'cut-half-through-...' a groove.

ruggero  ;)

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1206 on: May 03, 2009, 06:13:25 PM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1207 on: May 03, 2009, 06:16:34 PM »
Hello Ron,

I too have been confused with the term 'groove'...

Luckily Dusty who appears to be the major if not only hands on builder of this machine calls them 'slots' as he knows that a groove would be impractical.

@Larry

Your ramp to slot angles look good, this I would call the 'angle of attack' and the more oblique you can keep it the less friction you will encounter. That is up to a point of where the higher percentage is resting on the wheel.

I have high respect for Dusty, he is my kind of man. Just build the darn thing and quit using this thread as a simulation tutorial. Dusty will discover more by accident than any of you will achieve with your simulations.

This does not mean that I believe or endorse this Sjack design, my experience with comparable designs tells me that it will never reach any farther than Dusty has already achieved.

As Bessler stated and translated by John Collins; if it will not run with one then adding more is futile. Adding more increases the symmetrical pattern and the points of equilibrium will stay the same. If it will not run with one with a counter weight at 180 from the point of expulsion from the inner ramp then it will never turn.

A suggestion to Dusty; please try what I have explained above. with only one set of weights installed add the equivalent in a fixed counter weight. You may find the results interesting.

Ralph Lortie 
 

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1208 on: May 03, 2009, 07:10:24 PM »
Don't discard simulations. They have their own very important role in scientific research. @Dusty is doing a great job and ultimately, as is usually the case in science, that will be the experimental confirmation of the conjecture that such devices are physical. However, simulations help in uncovering the underlying phenomena and among other things help to optimize the design by making easy the testing of multiple parameters which otherwise will be very difficult to do, if at all possible. Too bad that people don't have Autodesk 3ds Max easily available to have more activity in this area. The unavailability of the program is the real problem here, not that simulations are under way.

One solution is to have those who make the simulations post vids. Unfortunately, my computer is too slow for such rendering and I'm unable to post videos of what we're doing. I wish @Cherryman liberates himself again from the MiB's (remember how he resisted and won over them the last time) and participates in these simulations. Recall how he was looking for a way to do 3D simulations. We also need @mondrasek's expertise in this. Where has he gone? Hans too. @AquariuZ, Stefan, @einsenficker2000, @ruggero. Well, I can't list everybody obviously. @Jubjub, did something fantastic and we have to jump right in that marvelous possibility he opened before us to have a realistic simulation of such devices. I'm looking very much forward to more simulations.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1208 on: May 03, 2009, 07:10:24 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1209 on: May 03, 2009, 07:17:21 PM »
Stefan,

Wonder if a dxf from @Jubjub's device will do any good. This 30 degree offset of the second pair of wheels will be lost in the wm2d sim. As a matter of fact, I think we already have wm2d sims with that kind of slotted wheel. Although, @rlortie may have a point in that if one wheel doesn't work more won't help. Hard to tell. Too many factors are involved and we see sometimes we observe counter intuitive things (CCW rotation while intuitively it appears the expected to be CW and so on).
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 12:17:02 AM by Omnibus »

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1210 on: May 04, 2009, 04:13:42 AM »
Hello Ron,


As Bessler stated and translated by John Collins; if it will not run with one then adding more is futile. Adding more increases the symmetrical pattern and the points of equilibrium will stay the same. If it will not run with one with a counter weight at 180 from the point of expulsion from the inner ramp then it will never turn.

Ralph Lortie

Ralph,

Just to keep you on your toes, I wonder if that is true?
To be precise the weights operate in pairs, so the corrected
statement should read not one but one pair of weights.

But if you look at the 'input' to the wheel then it would seem to be, for arguments sake, the right hand weight from 2:00 to
5:00. Then this exact same input is complimented by the left
hand weight from it's position from 6:00 to 9:00 as it drives
the wheel as it's orbit is changed inwards by the ramp.

But when the right hand weight is at the bottom position it is
providing minimal input to the wheel. So what drives the left hand weight through 11:00 to 1:00? Why the next pair of weights!, and so forth...

Because in my mind the weights don't operate in pairs at 180 degrees but rather the the two inputs from the RH weight at
3:30 and the LH weight at 7:30 drive the wheel and lift the
freeloading weight at 11:30.

Ron
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 04:57:16 AM by i_ron »

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1210 on: May 04, 2009, 04:13:42 AM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1211 on: May 04, 2009, 04:59:17 AM »
Ron,

OK! I willingly concede from part of my quote, your reply does show the benefit of doubt. It makes room for second thoughts and at present I do not have the objectivity to back up or disprove my statement.

The last thing I would ever do is mislead anyone by error or intentionally.

I am not attempting to duplicate this machine as I have a phobia gained through experience fighting the back torque and/or friction found in most stationary ramp designs.

I am however working on one that you may say is a deviation of this design; The weights travel a similar path without ramps and the acceleration by angular momentum is introduced at an earlier stage stage of rotation.

By the way! how come we are not talking about a wm2d simulation here?  ;D

Ralph
   

Offline i_ron

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1212 on: May 04, 2009, 06:24:46 AM »
Ron,

OK! I willingly concede from part of my quote, your reply does show the benefit of doubt. It makes room for second thoughts and at present I do not have the objectivity to back up or disprove my statement.

The last thing I would ever do is mislead anyone by error or intentionally.

I am not attempting to duplicate this machine as I have a phobia gained through experience fighting the back torque and/or friction found in most stationary ramp designs.

I am however working on one that you may say is a deviation of this design; The weights travel a similar path without ramps and the acceleration by angular momentum is introduced at an earlier stage stage of rotation.

By the way! how come we are not talking about a wm2d simulation here?  ;D

Ralph
 

Well Ralph, I got away with challenging the master that time!
My sole gravity machine was that floppy spring thingie some
time back... so back to studying the patent and scratching
my head....I am sorely puzzled as to what we may have missed...but not to worry, the sim's will show the way, lol

Ron


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1213 on: May 04, 2009, 08:45:21 AM »
Stefan,

Wonder if a dxf from @Jubjub's device will do any good. This 30 degree offset of the second pair of wheels will be lost in the wm2d sim. As a matter of fact, I think we already have wm2d sims with that kind of slotted wheel. Although, @rlortie may have a point in that if one wheel doesn't work more won't help. Hard to tell. Too many factors are involved and we see sometimes we observe counter intuitive things (CCW rotation while intuitively it appears the expected to be CW and so on).

Well, we could do it in 2D by putting 2 wheel side by side and using a gear to combine them
and have one wheel "weight phase shifted".

So a DXF would be good.
Regards, Stefan.

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1214 on: May 04, 2009, 09:27:32 AM »
I am not attempting to duplicate this machine as I have a phobia gained through experience fighting the back torque and/or friction found in most stationary ramp designs. ...Ralph

Wouldn't a smoother curve transition between weight-in-slot trajectory and ramp trajectory eliminate any possible back torque?

ruggero  ;)

 

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