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Author Topic: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant  (Read 677097 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1185 on: May 01, 2009, 03:16:33 AM »

I wanted to make you a file with just one wheel, and decided to take the one that I allready uploaded and just delete the barriers and dumbbells on the far side.
Just for kicks I started the simulation... - And it kept running... ???


Hi Jubjub,
great animation.

Please try to export your3D model as a projected 2D model of the slotted wheel
as a DXF file and post it please here.
Maybe we can this way try it with the WM2D Simulation software.

@Dusty,
great work man,
keep on going.
In your last video, please try to remove your bottom barrier,
as it might just have too much friction.
Please read the comment I made at youtube.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1186 on: May 01, 2009, 03:50:21 AM »
Hope @Cherryman saw @Jubjub's sim. It uses exactly the 3D sim software he was looking for.

Offline spider4re

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1187 on: May 01, 2009, 03:54:20 AM »
Okay, I'm back with another report.  I know this is getting positively ridiculous to have this many video's of this gravity wheel, but I just want to show the step by step progress on the ideas as they develop.

As an over view of this project, after the patents were posted I proceeded to build a 3D model of the basics that were given.  After building the machine I had something real for testing which led to making changes for the purpose of seeing what might be better.  If an idea was worse then I went back to what worked better.  So far I made one change to the lower track and just recently I made one change to the upper track.  On the wheels themselves I tried four different slot layouts.

Now I'll explain each video test, and keep in mind I'm looking for the most rise in the dumbell and also the rotation of the wheels. 

In this video I'm showing new hockey slots that are aiming straight towards the axle from both sides. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pH6Wgr9H-k&feature=channel_page     video 0763

In this wheel I flipped the two wheels and cut a new hockey end to test the opposite slot angle as compared to the original slots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L71bZRCOJBc&feature=channel_page      video 0764

Here I've added the curved slots.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbc1kStM9Wg&feature=channel_page     video 0765

This was real interesting, I'm showing a test I thought up, showing that the wheel going past the 360 degree point by having the dumbell fall and follow the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ4i9leznEk&feature=channel_page        video 0766

In this video I removed the dumbell and attached a five lb weight and just had it fall and rotate, not following the track, and it went 16 inches less than the previous video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qjStWmfvnI&feature=channel_page       video 0767

In this video I'm showing just one dumbell fall and follow the track.  This hockey slot track was the original slots on the wheel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74G_kSf5cS4&feature=channel_page      video 0768

Then this last video is showing the new upper track layout, with super fast acceleration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pmdExy6xsQ&feature=channel_page     video 0769

One thing I haven't showed is that I have used 2.5 lb, 5 lb and 10 lb weights for the dumbells.  More weight actually slowed down the rotation and too little weight didn't provide enough torque.  It looks like 5 lbs. is just right.

So now I'm just about finished with this first wheel.  I have one or two more tests with the track layout for optimization of bumbell rise.  Then it's time to build a bigger wheel.  It will be six feet in diameter and will have all eight dumbell weights installed.  A bigger wheel will make more room for all weights and give a longer hockey stick for extra leverage.  On the lift side of the wheel the distance from the slot to axle will remain the same as you see in the current wheel, but the outer torque distance will increase almost twice the distance.  I'm going to use the curve shape on the bigger wheel.

Thanks


Great work Dusty

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1187 on: May 01, 2009, 03:54:20 AM »
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Offline AquariuZ

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1188 on: May 01, 2009, 04:56:46 AM »
Then this last video is showing the new upper track layout, with super fast acceleration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pmdExy6xsQ&feature=channel_page     video 0769

The last one is a WINNER. It matches the abeling "D"...

Hopefully you can create the same accelerating curves to run a full test but this looks promising...

What a monumental effort you are putting into this, thanks for persisting...

AZ

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1189 on: May 01, 2009, 05:20:01 AM »
@ruggero and everyone else who doesn’t have wm2d, here’s a vid of a simulation with @Rusty’s type of a motor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf37W1C4uzc&feature=channel_page. Conditions are the default ones in wm2d and are supposedly ideal in terms of lack of Air  Resistance being set to None. However, static and kinetic friction is set to 0.300 while elasticity is set to 0.500 for all elements which is far from ideal. No need to mention that these parameters, especially friction, are very important to be set correctly and not overestimated – any common machine will stall if friction is made too high. Also, the weight of the spheres is 0.1kg while the weight of the grooved wheel is 1kg. Here @mondrasek may raise the same objections as the ones he raised concerning an earlier video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-dT4MZCtYo) simulating @eisenficker2000's idea, namely that the Animation Step (0.050s) and the Integration Error (0.010m) are too crude. However, try to change the geometry of this same model and you’ll see that the self-sustaining motion ceases although the same elements participate and the same confusion in calculations @mondrasek mentioned in connection with the earlier vid should be in effect.

Probably it should be mentioned that the symmetric grooves in Abeling’s patent unlike what apparently are grooves of various shapes seen in the wooden rotor of the machine in the barn seen in Abeling’s video may indicate that the problem with the trajectory of the dumbbells in a working machine may be more involved that what we’re portraying it in our renditions. @Rusty may be exploring that possibility so the present sim is just one basic variant along the road to what the solution may turn out to be.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 02:36:07 PM by Omnibus »

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1189 on: May 01, 2009, 05:20:01 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1190 on: May 01, 2009, 08:47:02 AM »
@Jubjub,

Trying to figure out what’s going on in your sim. Animation>Reactor>Utilities>Analyze World gives me too low density for the dumbbells. So, I changed the Mass 200 you’ve given to 2000. Also, the Mass 1000000 which you’ve given to the wheel seemed too high but the program doesn’t seem to feel a Mass less than about 100000 is acceptable so that’s what I changed it to. What the dimension of this quantity Mass is, I couldn’t find. With these changes the simulation works just as fine.

However, as I said before, you’ve given Friction the value of 0.0 to the wheel. When I changed that to Friction 1.0, as is the value assigned to the dumbbells, the wheel sways around equilibrium and doesn make turns any more. One of the dumbbells, at that, behaves strangely seemingly hanging in the air, so the program is doing something funny under these conditions. As I said before, ideally non-elastic conditions are assumed and I left that for now. If you change that to Elasticity 1.0 (ideally elastic) the setup explodes. Again, I’m still not clear as to what thee different Simulation Geometries are all about but, say, Bounding Box leads to the construction collapsing (the analysis window says bodies are interpenetrating). Same with the Bounding Sphere and Mesh Concave Hull. That’s for now. Will see tomorrow what else I can do with this analysis.

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1191 on: May 01, 2009, 09:42:58 AM »
@ruggero and everyone else who doesn’t have wm2d, here’s a vid of a simulation with @Rusty’s type of a motor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf37W1C4uzc. ......

I really appreciate your concern for the rest of us (mac-users etc.)...;-)

But this link gives an error at YouTube: "The URL contained a malformed video ID."

ruggero  ‚-)

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1191 on: May 01, 2009, 09:42:58 AM »
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Offline Jubjub

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1192 on: May 01, 2009, 10:29:40 AM »
Tonight I'll see if I have the time to make a new model. The former wheel "GravEng8-1" was not in scale - That is, I have no idea how big or small it is :)
I'm thinking about making a wheel with the same configuration as Dustys last video to see if it will simulate.

As for the different simulation geometries (@ Omibus) don't tamper with those, they are exactly what they are supposed to be. If you change it to bounding box as you said, the simulator will make calculations from the objects as boxes which we don't want. Concave or convex? Under tools you can test if an object is either - I have allready done so. And for the "mesh" it simply means that it will simulate the objects as they are built, with all their little creases and so on.

@Eric,
Thanks for your offer, but the current video took me under half an hour to render - Admitted, I didn't use final gather, real materials, textures or anything heavy.


Oh, there will be no dxf's of the current setup - But I will keep it in mind for the next one  :)
(Any particular version of dxf?)

Offline ruggero

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1193 on: May 01, 2009, 11:46:59 AM »
Dusty,

I'm amazed by your craftmanship: Your live models and tests are terrific and show us a lot of real-life issues to take into consideration.

Though...I've noticed that your curve design on the guided track differ from Abeling's original.( see my drawing: Abelings = black line, Dustys = red line)
Is there a reason to that?

From what I see you could easily tilt your existing curves to match Abeling's (see green line on drawing).
If you could do a demonstration on that, I think you will see the weight going further to the top-point. (I'd love to see that on video) ;-)

Also, I believe it of great importance that the "entrance" to the track at 05:00 are as smooth as possible, to prevent impact that slow down the wheel.

ruggero  ;-)

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1193 on: May 01, 2009, 11:46:59 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1194 on: May 01, 2009, 02:33:44 PM »
@ruggero,

Try this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf37W1C4uzc&feature=channel_page

Sorry about that. Probably I gave the link too soon before the youtube processing had completed. The link in the initial post is also corrected.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1195 on: May 01, 2009, 03:23:22 PM »
@Jubjub,

The diameter of your wheels appears to be 2m which is realistic. However, it isn’t clear what the units of mass used are. The masses are some huge numbers and the interesting thing is that the program doesn’t calculate smaller numbers to be proper. Also, some realistic value of elasticity has to be used which is now set to zero for all parts. Wonder if changing to real materials would change that too. Friction is set to 0.1 for the dumbbells but is 0 for the wheels. Not clear what the meaning of that is. Could it be that the program makes calculations separately for each part and when calculations are for the dumbbells friction is considered non-zero but is zero when calculating the wheels. Not clear. I don’t mind simulations for ideal conditions as long as they are meaningful. Of course, one may argue that even if the ideal conditions are properly set the continuous running of the wheel is due to the fact that at these ideal conditions the device is only a very efficient re-distributor of an initially imparted energy. Therefore, seeking some realism won’t hurt, to say the least.

As for the dxf file, it is of the type exported by SolidEdge, for instance. When drawing it in SolidEdge, however, one has to have in mind that millimeters appear as meters in WM2D. Also, in order for the drawing to be usable in wm2d all the grooves have to be part of a closed curve (polygon) – see instructions how to do that in SolidEdge by @X00013 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad3RZIwxQAM.

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1195 on: May 01, 2009, 03:23:22 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1196 on: May 01, 2009, 10:50:28 PM »
@Jubjub,

Tried to assign materials to the elements and see the result. Assignimg clear glass to the rotor and the dumbbells (following what Abeling appears to be doing) ostensibly renders well. However, when trying to run the animation the whole thing expodes. Tried also Al disk w/ glass dumbbells as well as other materials. These seem to render and run well as long as one keeps friction of the wheel to 0.00. Also, again, the program doesn't like the dumbells to be of a mass less than around 2000 mass units (whatever these mass units are). You've set it to 200 mass units and, although it renders and runs well (at friction 0.00), the Analyze World considers it un-physical. Aslo, the program doesn't like the wheel to be set to anything less than around 100,000 mass units. What the hell is this I can't fathom. Anyway, I put up with it for now. Now, as soon as you set friction to the wheel, even just a little bit, say, 0.01 units, the whole picture changes. Rendering becomes very slow and of what I've seen wheel exhibits somewhat erratic behavior. Hope you'll get a better picture of that influence with your faster computer. That question of friction is bothersome and has to be understood well. It well may be that setting to much of it is an overkill. Also, ideally non-elastic condition may be reasonable in view of the fact that there are practically no collisions (if one ignores the bumping of the dumbbell into the wall after sliding). But even so, we can imagine some plastilin (putty)-like material that acts ideally non-elastic. Anyway, I think that elasticity thing we'll take care of later after the friction is understood. This post was somewhat repetitious in terms of the friction question but the materials issue is new. Seems choosing materials doesn't change the friction value which has to be specifically indicated through setting it by hand.

Forgot to mention, when materials are assigned at friction 0.00 almost in all cases a slight CCW motion is observed after which the wheel picks up CW motion. This differs from the original case, first uploaded here, whereby no materials were assigned and the wheel goes straight into CW run.

EDIT: I'll add here some more observations. So, after assigning Al to the wheel and stainless steel to the dumbbells, setting friction of the wheel to 0.01 I rendered it for somewhat longer period. What I observed was an initial hesitation to and fro of the wheel after which it picked up the CW rotation. At that the dumbbells that are stuck between other two dumbbells (the size of the dumbbells is such that every other one gets stuck between the previous and the follow-up) slide with a delay . Thus, as I said, even this much of friction imposed on the wheel (0.01) may turn out to be an overkill. I wonder if it's worth making vids of these small steps of the analysis or just stating the above just in words is enough.

Now, tried the above w/ even higher wheel friction value (0.1 inits), matching the dumbbell friction. Similar thing, if not better -- after initial hesitation picks up CW rotation quite decisively. That looks pretty promising.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 12:17:07 AM by Omnibus »

Offline LarryC

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1197 on: May 02, 2009, 12:08:17 AM »
Allright! Dusty,

"Then this last video is showing the new upper track layout, with super fast acceleration."

Great job, you are very close to showing what Sjack states: In the topleft of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward.

Also, in the patent, FIG 4, it shows the reason for the super fast acceleration in the top left.  As all of the weight ball slots are equidistant but the the weight balls are not. The forms/guide force the action.

Isn't it amazing how one builder following the inventors patent and information can out perform a pack of simulators? Some simulations are still rotating backwards ???

Regards, Larry


Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1198 on: May 02, 2009, 12:22:45 AM »
Allright! Dusty,

"Then this last video is showing the new upper track layout, with super fast acceleration."

Great job, you are very close to showing what Sjack states: In the topleft of the system the weight is accelerated (like with shot put). The weight is moving faster than the system, and as the system catches the weight it is propelled forward.

Also, in the patent, FIG 4, it shows the reason for the super fast acceleration in the top left.  As all of the weight ball slots are equidistant but the the weight balls are not. The forms/guide force the action.

Isn't it amazing how one builder following the inventors patent and information can out perform a pack of simulators? Some simulations are rotating backwards ???

Regards, Larry

No doubt, @Dusty is doing a great job and, of course, should there be a working model the simulations can only help in clarifying the theory behind it. As for the backward rotation, it may be the natural way of rotation. Don't forget that that rotation is about the center of mass and not only it isn't seen in the sim but also it constantly changes it's position. Sense of rotation is the least of our worries. And, by the way, in @Jubjub's contraption the rotation is in the intuitively expected sense (probably because of the 30 degree offset).

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Sjack Abeling Gravity Wheel and the Worlds first Weight Power Plant
« Reply #1199 on: May 02, 2009, 12:36:10 AM »
As you may expect, I got ambitious and said to myself what if I set friction to 0.3 and elasticity to 0.5as much as the default values are in wm2d. What happened was a very very slow rendering which then showed hesitation but the turning was CW with hick-ups. This is to be expected because I imposed friction on all, including on the axis of rotation. Now I'm doing it again but the friction on the wheel is now 0.01 (retaining the 0.5 elasticity). Will see what happens.

Wish I could show you this (don't know how to make an avi yet). Rotor is hesitating constantly but inching forward. Decelerating and then accelerating.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2009, 01:08:16 AM by Omnibus »

 

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