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Author Topic: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.  (Read 27749 times)

ramset

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2009, 03:42:38 AM »
Gravity
Great stuff ,we need one of those

Cap't Thanks

Chet

lumen

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2009, 05:30:36 AM »

This is the concept of my new idea I am working on.

It is easy to see how the magnets need to be setup for desired operation (or non operation)?

Anyway I am about to start construction on this just as soon as I am convinced the MYLOW device doesn't work. I do plan to give him just a bit more time but then it's on with the action.


mr_bojangles

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 05:45:31 AM »
im very intrigued by your idea,

basically the shielding allows for the force to be focused in a more perpendicular fashion so the magnetic field doesn't occur until it almost squared with the edge of the stationary magnets causing an attracting action on the "red" deemed pole and then following a repulsion of the "blue"


the only feeling i have with it is that it would want to stick on the way out and the "red" poles would align

if its more concentrated it might be harder for the magnet to "pop" through the other side to be repelled and pushed away

in addition the stronger the field is created the more drag will be induced in the moving magnets

i wonder if it would change anything if you used a double magnet for the moving magnets and used single magnets for the stationary one
*in the rotating/ track type one^**

those are only initial thoughts, curious to see when you/whoever tests it



until next time




 


gravityblock

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2009, 09:38:06 AM »
I have my ring magnets ready.  My next step is to build the rail.  Still looking for a good ferromagnetic tube/pipe for the shielding of the ring magnets.  Any suggestions for the thick ferromagnetic pipe would be appreciated.  I won't have much time over the weekend to work on this, but  I"ll try to have this completed by the 8th.

I have a feeling this will work if it's done right.  If not, please don't kill the messenger.   ;D

Thanks.

broli

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2009, 12:12:09 PM »
I have my ring magnets ready.  My next step is to build the rail.  Still looking for a good ferromagnetic tube/pipe for the shielding of the ring magnets.  Any suggestions for the thick ferromagnetic pipe would be appreciated.  I won't have much time over the weekend to work on this, but  I"ll try to have this completed by the 8th.

I have a feeling this will work if it's done right.  If not, please don't kill the messenger.   ;D

Thanks.

I doubt you have the tools for this. But you could use some roof flashing and use a hole saw that's very near the size of the inner diameter of the magnet...

http://images.google.be/images?hl=nl&q=hole%20saw&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

And another that's maybe 1 cm smaller than that. What you will then get is many laminates of it which you can stack to form a tube.

Another solution would be using dead batteries on the inside. Saw that they are quite good flux channelers on those magnetic shielding videos on youtube.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 12:51:58 PM by broli »

gravityblock

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2009, 09:18:12 PM »
For those who may be interested, the ring magnets I posted earlier came from Wal-mart, in the automotive section.  It is packaged as a 6" magnetic parts tray with a rubber case to protect the magnet and to prevent marring of surfaces, for less than $6.00 each.  I'll post pictures of what the packaging looks like.

Broli,  I am going to try the idea you suggested about the roof flashing and the hole saw.  I found a set of hole saws I had previously bought.  I need to obtain the roof flashing or other similar material before I can proceed with this experiment.

I will not make the deadline of the 8th for testing.  I made the deadline for myself, so I would not procrastinate.

« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 10:22:59 PM by gravityblock »

Low-Q

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2009, 10:22:34 AM »
Oke I managed to perfect the circular idea I started at that other thread.

The most important part of this whole idea is the tube shielding on the inside of the ring magnets. I also rendered two versions for the moving magnets, one shielded and the other unshielded. I was not sure which one works better so I added both. But I highly speculate the unshielded one would work better.

Then the last rendition shows the ring magnets replaced by conductors. This is merely to prove the concept. Because it's hell of a lot simpler to just wind a bunch of wire than go buy some big magnets. Also I'm not very sure if the results would be better if the wire windings were further to the OD (outer diameter) of the shield or if it was at the center between the OD and ID. Again I speculate that when wound nearer to the OD it might give more asymmetry and thus better results. But just to be on the safe side I positioned it in the middle.
You are right about the forces in these drawings when the magnets are in the positions shown. In that very moment, there is a force in one direction.

If you push the magnets further in that direction, the rail magnet that is closing the ringmagnet, will feel a stronger and stronger attraction. My intuition says that when that closing magnet has became almost right in the middle of the ringmagnet, it will start to feel a counterforce that will prevent it to continue. It will find its equilibrium somewhere insde the ringmagnet

Regarding the shielding:
These will reduce the counterforce, but the shield does not distinguish between force and counterforce, so the force that is attracting and repelling the magnets on each side is also weaker accordingly.

I can make a simple demonstration in FEMM if you like. And we can look at the forces at any given time and distance, add them up, and see if there is a force greater than the counterforce.

EDIT: I read your later post, so I must test with unshielded moving magnets as well.

Vidar

gravityblock

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2009, 02:57:04 PM »
You are right about the forces in these drawings when the magnets are in the positions shown. In that very moment, there is a force in one direction.

This is my finding on the forces.  Both sides of the OD has the same polarity and both sides of the ID has the opposite polarity of the OD.

If you push the magnets further in that direction, the rail magnet that is closing the ringmagnet, will feel a stronger and stronger attraction. My intuition says that when that closing magnet has became almost right in the middle of the ringmagnet, it will start to feel a counterforce that will prevent it to continue. It will find its equilibrium somewhere insde the ringmagnet

I agree with you Vidar.  In the middle of the ring magnet, there is a counterforce that prevents it to continue, since the force on both sides of the ID of the ring magnet are pointing towards the middle of the ring magnet.

Regarding the shielding:
These will reduce the counterforce, but the shield does not distinguish between force and counterforce, so the force that is attracting and repelling the magnets on each side is also weaker accordingly.

Eliminating the counterforce with the shielding will also eliminate the force of the magnets.  Can't have one without the other.  >:(

The only way I think this can be done, is to use a Halbach Array ring magnet.  This type of ring magnet will have only one force coming from the same side of the ID and pointing in the same direction across the entire inside of the ring magnet with no opposition force from the other side.  With this type of setup, the front of the rail magnet will be attracted through the ring magnet and the back of the rail magnet will be pushed through the ring magnet with no counterforce.

Low-Q

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2009, 07:47:54 PM »
The problem with the Halbach array is that the magnetic field is focused in the arrays length, not width. So a ringmagnet with this array would probably not "see" the railmagnet as long that magnet isn't inside the ring in the magnetic field. The good thing however with Halbach array ringmagnet is that the magnetic flux is focused where it suppose to be when we use that array in a DC-motor. Most possible flux is present where it is desired to have it, and not spread out in the surroundings.

The other thing with the Halbach array is that the poles are shifting along the array - shouldnt be a problem if the railmagnet was configured likewise. However, the railmagnet must at some time and place rotate a bit in order to shift from attracting to repelling mode. This action must be done right in the middle of the highest flux density to achieve maximum attraction and repell moments. This operation requires great force. In fact so much force it will equalize all attractive and repelling forces in front an behind the Halbach array ring magnet. So the system will halt.

what is possible to test however, is to make a perfect counterforce for the rotation inside the Halbach array ring. This system can stay stationary and perfectly balanced, so each time the railmagnet is going in the "hole" to rotate enough to change polarity, this stationary counterforce would therfor allow the railmagnet to shift polarity without cost.

To be honest, I wonder how that works in practice. I have the idea in my head, so I might make a drawing of it on the paper, to easier see how it work - if it work.

Well, allways sceptic, but still open minded :)

Vidar

gravityblock

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2009, 09:49:31 PM »
The problem with the Halbach array is that the magnetic field is focused in the arrays length, not width. So a ringmagnet with this array would probably not "see" the railmagnet as long that magnet isn't inside the ring in the magnetic field. The good thing however with Halbach array ringmagnet is that the magnetic flux is focused where it suppose to be when we use that array in a DC-motor. Most possible flux is present where it is desired to have it, and not spread out in the surroundings.

The other thing with the Halbach array is that the poles are shifting along the array - shouldnt be a problem if the railmagnet was configured likewise. However, the railmagnet must at some time and place rotate a bit in order to shift from attracting to repelling mode. This action must be done right in the middle of the highest flux density to achieve maximum attraction and repell moments. This operation requires great force. In fact so much force it will equalize all attractive and repelling forces in front an behind the Halbach array ring magnet. So the system will halt.

what is possible to test however, is to make a perfect counterforce for the rotation inside the Halbach array ring. This system can stay stationary and perfectly balanced, so each time the railmagnet is going in the "hole" to rotate enough to change polarity, this stationary counterforce would therfor allow the railmagnet to shift polarity without cost.

To be honest, I wonder how that works in practice. I have the idea in my head, so I might make a drawing of it on the paper, to easier see how it work - if it work.

Well, allways sceptic, but still open minded :)

Vidar

Vidar, it all depends on how you build your Halbach cylinder array.  Take a look at the Halbach cylinders on wikipedia and you will see how you can have a field on the ID of the ringmagnet,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halbach_cylinder#Halbach_cylinder

The poles don't shift along the array.  What you see as the poles shifting, is causing the field to be canceled on one side and strengthened on the other side. I don't think the rail magnet needs to be a Halbach cylinder, since there would only be one pole pointing in the same direction across the entire inside of the ring magnet.

Try to think of it like this.  On the front side of the ring magnet, you can have a very strong north pole on both the OD and ID.  On the back side of the ring magnet, you can have a very weak to no south pole on both the OD and ID.  I may be wrong about this, but I don't see why the array can't be built for the desired results we would like.

Here's a youtube video on one of the configurations you could have with a Halbach array cylinder,  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qv-9IAj_YnI&feature=related
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 08:04:28 AM by gravityblock »

gravityblock

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2009, 05:56:34 AM »
I've tried a few different materials for the shielding.  I'm currently using batteries for the shielding in the ring magnet and a thin piece of metal for the rail magnet.  I have the best results when both magnets are shielded.  I think repulsive mode on entry works best.  The rail magnet shoots through the ring magnet once it gets past a small sticky point on entry, but it is not able to free itself from the batteries on the other side.

I need to have a spacer between the batteries and the rail magnet so they won't stick together, but there is no room left on the inside diameter of the ring magnet.  I need either smaller batteries or a smaller diameter rail magnet in order to test this.

I think the appropriate material for the shielding and spacers are critical, just like broli said,  in order to have a positive results in this experiment.

I'm attaching pictures of the setup I currently have, with the rail magnet on the inside of the batteries.  This is the point at which the rail magnet stopped at after coming though the back side of the ring magnet.  Also, in the background is a picture of Sammy Terry that my girlfriend chalked.   ;D

Paul-R

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2009, 03:53:42 PM »
It would be good to study this idea from our thrice blest leader:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm1.htm
There may well be something to be gained.
Paul.

Low-Q

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2009, 09:39:15 PM »
I've tried a few different materials for the shielding.  I'm currently using batteries for the shielding in the ring magnet and a thin piece of metal for the rail magnet.  I have the best results when both magnets are shielded.  I think repulsive mode on entry works best.  The rail magnet shoots through the ring magnet once it gets past a small sticky point on entry, but it is not able to free itself from the batteries on the other side.

I need to have a spacer between the batteries and the rail magnet so they won't stick together, but there is no room left on the inside diameter of the ring magnet.  I need either smaller batteries or a smaller diameter rail magnet in order to test this.

I think the appropriate material for the shielding and spacers are critical, just like broli said,  in order to have a positive results in this experiment.

I'm attaching pictures of the setup I currently have, with the rail magnet on the inside of the batteries.  This is the point at which the rail magnet stopped at after coming though the back side of the ring magnet.  Also, in the background is a picture of Sammy Terry that my girlfriend chalked.   ;D
You can use regular nails as shielding. Just cut the heads of the nails off first. Nails in any size ans length can be bought in any wood ware store.

The "small sticky" spot you mentioned doesn't last for long, but it is relatively powerful in order to balance the total forces in a closed loop into zero, so you have to find a way to remove it or reduce it without affecting the other desired forces along the rails. That is the most tricky and most "impossible" part of a working magnet motor.

Anyway, batteries can be replaced by nails. Then you get more inner diameter. Good luck, and nice chalked picture btw. :)

Br.

Vidar

Low-Q

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2009, 10:02:48 PM »
It would be good to study this idea from our thrice blest leader:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/shpmm1.htm
There may well be something to be gained.
Paul.
If it just was that easy. I have seen it before, so I tested this very setup a while ago. There is a few non-obvious forces that counterforce the system. Permanentmagnets tends to conserve the field at any time. That means they want to cancel out any potential difference in the system, in order to conserve the magnetic field. This means that there is no potential magnetic difference that will provide a unidirectional acceleration and speed of the permanentmagnet.
Look at the field lines in the example in one of the links. They are acually not directed in one direction, but pinched at one side and expanded on the other side - no net movement of the magnetic field is present. What a circular magnetic field from a wire does is to guide the magnetic field behind it so the wire has free "magnetic space" to "fall" into, and simultaneously is pushed forward by the densed magnetic field behind it.
This cant be done with permanentmagnets without having another magnetic circuit that is the very opposite - and therefor cancel out the force.

Ofcourse, according to someone this fact is BS and pure heresy. But that does unfortunately not change the facts in any way.

Br.

Vidar

gravityblock

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Re: Yet another, free, all magnetic idea.
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 02:43:12 PM »
I found something interesting with the shielding.

Take a piece of metal that is highly attracted to a magnet and attach the magnet's south pole to the metal (front side).  Now, place another magnet on the same side of the metal (front side) at the opposite end, with it's south pole attached to the metal.  With this arrangement, when you take a third magnet and come in on the back side of the metal, you will feel a repelling force as you approach the metal with one of it's poles.  If you continue, then it will attract to the metal and overcome the repelling force. Also, another piece of metal will stick to the backside of the metal.  So, with this arrangement, the shielding spread the magnetic field over a greater area on the back side of the metal, but didn't eliminate it (sticky spot is weaker, but covers a larger area).

Now flip one magnet over (where it's north pole is attached to the metal), but keep it on the same side of the metal as the other magnet.  With this arrangement,  you will feel no repelling force as you approach the backside of the metal with either pole, and it will be immediately attracted to the metal. Also, another piece of metal will not stick to the backside of the metal.  So, with this arrangement, the shielding eliminated the magnetic field on the backside of the metal (no sticky spot).

This works the other way around also, with the metal sandwiched between the magnets.  Another piece of metal won't stick to either side of the sandwiched metal.  This gives me a few ideas for a magnet motor.

Tell me how or if we can use this to our benefit with the shielding of the ring magnet's sticky spot.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 04:48:51 PM by gravityblock »