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Author Topic: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor  (Read 152206 times)

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2009, 03:07:16 AM »
@gyulasun :

Your input is very valuable, always good to see circuits analysed by someone with a profound electrotechnical background.

I have just quickly drawn the circuit also forgetting about more proper timing resitor values.
Your kOhm suggestion for R3 is the way to go to properly limit the current into the diode. Should i limit the voltage across the diode too (with a zener or voltage divider) ? With a 12v supply current, pin 3 would probably carry around 10 Volt to that opto-diode and right now i am not sure if that is too much for the diode.

I have just chained the 3 capacitors going to each coil together in series and with a 4th coil, i am just getting considerate of maybe even attempting to neon pulse the whole thing since this would easily reach the ignition voltage of a neon.

I will try both variants for sure.

Thanks again!

EDIT: 4 coils in action, up to 75 Volt, neon doesnt fire yet, guess i will have to go above 85 volt or so.
video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi31N8h7DkA
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 04:25:49 AM by xenomorphlabs »

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #30 on: April 20, 2009, 03:07:16 AM »

Offline jonnydavro

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #31 on: April 20, 2009, 09:44:45 AM »
@Xenomorph.Your work on this project has been amazing.Keep going your on a roll.
Regarding your idea about neon pulsing,maybe you could add a voltage doubling rectifier.This may take you above the discharge voltage.Regards jonnydavro

Offline gyulasun

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 09:50:44 AM »
@xenomorphlabs

Hi,

No need for limiting the 555 output voltage at pin 3 for the opto diode,  yes it is about 10V pulse that drives the diode and peak current is determined by R3, (10V/R3).   (I did not check the timing resistor value... lol  :) )

Well,  if the goal is finding any extra output, i.e higher than input power,  then I would suggest connecting the output DC voltages of the 4 puffer capacitors in parallel via low voltage drop diodes to enhance current load capacity and build or use a DC-DC converter which receives the parallel outputs and converts them into a 10 or 12V stabilized DC, with ground independence, to replace the presently used main 12V battery.  If such a setup would be able to supply 70-80mA @ 10-12V continuously from (the chopped) 4 (or more?) puffer capacitors then you could loop it back for a self runner setup.  (A good DC-DC converter has a higher than 90% efficiency, so it would not be a big waste.)

When you use a neon for a load then it will draw current above its ON voltage, below it nothing, so most of the stored energy of the capacitors will remain inside them...   I mean what do you learn when a neon is ON in this setup? It cannot show overunity...?

With this 'rambling' I do not wish to get you sidetracked from what you really wish to do, of course.  The bottom line is you reach your goal.

rgds,  Gyula

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #32 on: April 20, 2009, 09:50:44 AM »
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Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #33 on: April 20, 2009, 02:45:01 PM »
@Gyula:

Would the DC/DC converter beat Lenz law? I mean the timed discharge only affects the magnets motion
during the short time that the cap is connected to the battery.

By low voltage drop diodes, do you mean germanium diodes with 0.3 volt?

I will give it a try for sure. Your suggestion sounds interesting !

Concerning the neon. If i am not mistaken, people have been using neons to send short pulses of energy to batteries due to the fact that at the ignition voltage the neon conducts for a short time while dropping in voltage until the ignition voltage is reached again. I understand that as a simple timed discharge tool.

There is many possibilities here, which is good.

Offline brownsville

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2009, 03:19:14 PM »
Jonny,

I had the same problem as Bill, I redid the entire coil once and rewired everything twice and still couldn't get it up! Thought it was a size problem ;D.

The coil is again torn down - it was the lidmotor version. I tried AA - 2 AA and a 12 volt source with a voltage regulator. Although the lowest it goes is 3.5 volt.

I guess I got too frustrated and am going to rebuild. Need to wait and see if Bill can get one going.

Brownsville

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2009, 03:19:14 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2009, 03:20:33 PM »

Would the DC/DC converter beat Lenz law? I mean the timed discharge only affects the magnets motion
during the short time that the cap is connected to the battery.   

No, of course not, a DC-DC converter cannot beat Lenz at the input, nor anywhere.
I agree with what you mean on the timed discharge but a timed discharge of the parallel caps (whose positive input wires include a series diode each) may reduce the continuous load that otherwise would be normally present. The timed discharge of the parallel capacitors could be done with one further switch (a MOSFET) just during the time when the charge phase of the capacitors is just off (simply inverse the same pulse to control this 2nd switch)

Quote
By low voltage drop diodes, do you mean germanium diodes with 0.3 volt?

Yes, but Ge has 0.1-0.2V drop, Schottky has 0.2-0.3V drop,  this diode question would be important only if you have to fight for the last few milliWatts to save for to get a selfrunner, lol...   use normal Si diodes here if you wish.

Quote
Concerning the neon. If i am not mistaken, people have been using neons to send short pulses of energy to batteries due to the fact that at the ignition voltage the neon conducts for a short time while dropping in voltage until the ignition voltage is reached again. I understand that as a simple timed discharge tool.


Yes, ok I misunderstood you.  I thought you want to use a neon for lighting indications as a load and not for triggering, sorry.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline jonnydavro

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2009, 01:03:39 AM »
@Brownsville.Hi.Are you using a 1k pot and a 10k pot and a 100ohm resistor in your trigger circuit?
Are you using a core?
This is my starting procedure.
1. turn 1k pot to 1000 ohms and then leave alone
2.Turn 10k pot to 0 ohms.
3.Spin the magnet.when it is up to speed all speed adjustments are made with the 10k pot
Also i would try running on straight 12v until you get it going.Let me know how you get on.

@All I have tonight done a test on the 40swg pickup coil at 12v so it will be comparable with the output off Xenomorphs pickup coil and the results were quite surprising.The verticle Magnet is spinning so fast and zooming about at 12v and the output was over 47v and still climbing.At one stage it was over 50v and climbing.There seems to be no effect on the magnets speed from the pickup coil.
I did the same test with the angular spinning magnet at that goes up to 48v but the coil has an effect on this magnet and slows it so i think the verticle is the way to go.
Here is a pic off the test.Regards jonnydavro

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #36 on: April 21, 2009, 01:03:39 AM »
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Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #37 on: April 21, 2009, 01:55:28 AM »
The optocoupler circuit works nicely to discharge the puffer capacitors.
I connected two pairs in parallel. The timing of the 555 needs to be improved still.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6qGvHUPbsY

@gyulasun : Good idea, that way the battery is never connected to the pickup-coils and lenz effects are minimized. I will go ahead and make a MOSFET circuit.

Jonnydavros aircore coils seem to reach higher voltages than mine.
For comparison, i have used 900 turns of 0,2mm copper wire on a 3,6cm diameter spool

The voltage is measured across a 10uF/35 V capacitor.

Can anyone here make a statement about detrimental effects of a too high turncount?
Generally more turns result in higher voltages, but where is the limit at which the resistance of the wire becomes too big (3000+ turns ?)

We want to optimize the aircore coils to pickup the maximal amount of energy

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2009, 06:40:48 AM »
Jonny,

I had the same problem as Bill, I redid the entire coil once and rewired everything twice and still couldn't get it up! Thought it was a size problem ;D.

The coil is again torn down - it was the lidmotor version. I tried AA - 2 AA and a 12 volt source with a voltage regulator. Although the lowest it goes is 3.5 volt.

I guess I got too frustrated and am going to rebuild. Need to wait and see if Bill can get one going.

Brownsville

@ All:

Good news!  I have rotation!  I am using the standard Bedini SSG circuit and Lidmotor's transformer coil.  I swapped my 330 ohm resistor for a 100 ohm base resistor (Thanks Jonny!!!) and kept the 5k ohm pot. (single)  I also experimented by moving my core up and down and when I got to about .250" below the surface (1/4") that sucker took off and stood up like you would not believe.  You guys are correct in that you have to reduce resistance right away or that thing takes off for parts unknown!!!!

I am now working on making a better surface for it to rotate on.  I have already destroyed several tupperware bowls in this effort.  I am heating them with a mirco torch and pushing a softball in the to the bottm while it is suspended over another ceramic concave bowl.  This has not worked so far.  I will think of something.  Once I get a better surface, I will produce a video.  It spins....and very, very fast and when it stands up, it is wandering to much and God only knows what happens a minute or so after that.

But, the good news is that Lidmotor's coil and the other stuff works just fine to get this thing running.  Thanks to everyone for all of their help especially Jonny.  Once I get it stabilized, I will enter into other experiments.

Thank you,

Bill
« Last Edit: April 21, 2009, 09:19:55 AM by Pirate88179 »

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #38 on: April 21, 2009, 06:40:48 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #39 on: April 21, 2009, 11:09:31 AM »
@xenomorphlabs

Here is a link on multilayer air core coil calculation: http://www.circuits.dk/calculator_multi_layer_aircore.htm

It also deals with the problem of choosing the optimum geometry to get the highest self inductance from a given length of wire, see the Brooks coil text at the bottom of the link.  An online calculator for Brooks coils is here:
http://www.nessengr.com/techdata/brooks/brooks.html

Others also studied this problem before Brooks and the conclusion was: "There is indeed a “magic value” of coil length to coil radius, which, for a given length of wire, results in maximum inductance. The resulting value of maximum inductance depends upon the wire length, but the ratio is independent of it. The ratio determined from Wheeler’s simple formula is exactly 0.9, that from his more complicated formula approximately 0.814. The maxima is broad."

( quoted from this link: http://www.phy.auckland.ac.nz/Staff/geb/Inductance%20Problem.pdf )   So I think the second link on Brooks calculator is enough for this problem,  by the way your coils seen in the videos may already near to the optimal shape?


Jonnydavros seems to use thinner wire for his coils so his number of turns hence self inductance is higher this explains his received higher induced voltage. 

If a thin wire diameter is used, the induced voltage increases for sure but the copper loss also increases. The strange thing to notice is that the higher copper resistance seems to reduce the Lenz effect but in reality the loading current gets limited by the higher coil resistance, this reducing loading effect makes you believe Lenz is getting defeated....

rgds,  Gyula

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2009, 02:37:20 PM »
@Gyula: Your info is EXACTLY what we need to know ! Thanks so much for your input here !!!

I agree that the shape of my coils might be close to ideal. I will just make some with more turns now.

With the helpful calculator i could verify that jonnydavro reaches a 364 % higher inductance with his coil setup than the ones i made. (I had to guesstimate his coil specs though, because he has no data of it)

6313.06 uH as opposed to 23022.46 uH

Well i will stick to SWG 40 (AWG 36-38) for now. Everything thinner is too much of a hazzle hehe.

I once made a 4000 turn JT-toroid with AWG 43 wire and it didnt work, too easy to rupture it i guess.

It seems that we have to find out experimentally what the maximum affordable copper losses are trying out different coils.



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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2009, 02:37:20 PM »
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Offline brownsville

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2009, 04:19:00 PM »
@JonnyDavro - Thanks for the help and info...will rebuild tonight...coil anyway. BTW are you a Doctor Who fan?

Now that Bill has done it with the Lidmotor coil I will git-r-done...I hope. ;D

Thanks again.

Brownsville

Offline jonnydavro

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2009, 11:29:46 PM »
@pirate.Thats good news Bill.Try putting the relay in when you get a moment and don't forget to recover the bemf.Your core is in about the same position as mine.Can't wait to see that beast spinning. ;)
@Brownsville.Thats the spirit,never give up.You will get it going and yes i like dr who. ;)
@Gyulasun.Thanks for posting that link.It may help me bring a more scientific approach to the way i make my pickups.Regards jonnydavro

Offline xenomorphlabs

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2009, 11:45:12 PM »
Little update:

I use bigger puffer capacitors now to dump into the battery.
Also a different lid that allows a more stable rotation of the magnet.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFqayiEQpGs

I am wondering if it is wiser to just use one big cap and connect the 4 bridge rectifiers to it ?

Gyula, what would you think is a parallel or serial connection of the rectifiers charging the cap more efficiently?

« Last Edit: April 22, 2009, 01:54:41 AM by xenomorphlabs »

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: One magnet no bearing Bedini motor
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2009, 04:41:04 AM »
@ Jonny and all:

Here is a short video of my replication attempt: 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiMZAuRJJM


I still have a stability problem, as you can see in the video.  I am using a 103ohm base resistor and one pot is 5k and the other is 2k.  I crank the resistance up to start it and then quickly turn it down.  In this video I have it down all the way and it still gets too wild to control.  Once in a while, it will settle in to a stable spin but then, it begins the wobble that you see.  In a day or two, I will go out and get the pots that Jonny used and go from there.

Thanks again for the help, there is more to do but at least I have rotation and it stands up...just not straight.

Bill

 

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