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Wind energy => Wind energy generators => Topic started by: infringer on March 23, 2009, 03:06:54 AM

Title: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on March 23, 2009, 03:06:54 AM
Ok to start off I have:

1 slip ring harness on its way
1 ac delco 140amp alternator on the way
1 windblue Delco to PMA conversion rotor
6 5ft metal blades 3/16 thickness steel reinforced with a ring and adjustment screws on each blade to adjust the pitch.
40 ft of 2" id 2 and 1/4" od pipe which I will order soon.

Now my delima ...

My blades will be plenty heavy so the torque that I will achive from this unit should be fair.

I need suggestions on what I can use for a gear box preferably something I can buy and mount up with minamalist amounts of machining.

What gear ratio do you suggest will be sufficiant I would say I average a 12mph wind.

The gearbox is the kicker for all wind systems it seems  and with the torque this thing should put out I am guessing 2:1 may be a minamalist thing too do but 6:1 may be more fruitful.

For those of you who want a cheap slipring harness take two male ac plug ends slap them back to back and pressure fit them into two sealed bearrings use stadard automotive crimp on ends to pass the power safely down the line.

Wind turbines are the cheapest form of useable free energy today get in where you fit in.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Mark69 on March 23, 2009, 03:38:54 AM
Why dont you use a different design then the old fashion blades and such.  Look at the vertical style, much easier, less maintenance and takes up less space (probably cheaper too and draw less attention).  Find yourself a squirrel cage in an old a/c unit or blower from a heater.  You wont have to worry about wind direction either.  You can also increase the flow to the windmill by putting up "flow directors" to catch more wind.  What I mean by "flow director" is a bunch of flat pieces of metal or whatever that start out wide at end and converge at the windmill.

Mark
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: jacek on March 23, 2009, 03:56:21 AM
Have you visited http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/default.asp ?
Lots of tips and helpful Aussies over there.

jacek
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on March 24, 2009, 01:31:58 AM
The reason I build in this manner is to achieve a better output.

If you look at all the commercial towers that put out large amounts many of them are with blades that fall ....

I am not sure if this is because they get more torque in this manner or it kills less birds really but could it be that this method is more durable and possibly provides more output...

Please do help though I would love to know more thank you guys! For jumping in ...

I have seen the backshed's website as well... but they were not all too useful to answer my main question if I remember correct ...

GEARBOX was the main question any idea what kind of gearbox I can use????
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on March 24, 2009, 03:00:54 AM

Hi Infringer,

Why not use 2 sprockets with the ratio you need (motorcycles sprockets) and chain drive the alternator.

Take care,

Michel
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: derricka on March 24, 2009, 04:00:46 AM
Michelinho's idea is a good one. While a chain and sprocket is a little mechanically less efficient then direct gearing, it should allow you to determine the best gear ratio at low cost. Once you know the ratio, you can switch to direct gears. Also remember, the torque required by the generator or alternator varies in proportion to the electrical load connected to it,  So if I was designing a wind system, I would start with the electrical requirements, and work my way back toward the alternator, and finally the blades.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Mark69 on March 24, 2009, 05:42:05 AM
If you can find a used drill press w/i your budget, maybe a bad motor or something old, they have many different pulley sizes in the top for different gearing to control the speed of the bit.  They use belts as well so it would take less draw to spin them.  Or you can use the design style of a snowmobile, uses belts and cones, like a constant speed transmission.  This would be more expensive but is the ultimate in gearing.
Mark
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Blacksmith on March 24, 2009, 06:10:40 AM
Infringer
   I have been around a lot of windmills and wind generators and have worked on a few with my dad when I was growing up.
Some rules of thumb: 1. Any more than three blades and they start running into old air.
                                2. Dont use blades any heavier than is structuraly necessary.
     
There are others but those two should be seriously pondered over.

Blacksmith
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: derricka on March 24, 2009, 06:57:29 AM
Infringer,

I noticed that your shopping list didn't include a rectifier, voltage regulator or batteries. In addition, if you want to convert the battery power to standard AC, you will also need an inverter.
While you may already have these items, I just wanted to make sure you didn't overlook them.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Paul-R on March 24, 2009, 04:06:51 PM
I wonder how an anemometer type windmill would work - i.e. with huge cups.
http://www.sciencescope.co.uk/images/anemometer.jpg
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on March 24, 2009, 04:51:16 PM

@Paul-R

This would be more efficient in a vertical design but it would need to be large to spin the alternator under full load.

Quote
The newest idea for harvesting the wind is nearly 900 years old. Vertical windmills, like the Wind Tower (right) from Windaus Turbines of Ontario, can crank out 50 percent more power than conventional, horizontal-mounted designs. Windaus says this is because the blades catch the wind regardless of the direction from which it blows. Although remains of foundations for vertical windmills dating to 1150 have been found in France, it is only with the advent of lightweight composites that the design has become practical. Windaus believes the inherently quiet operation of vertical turbines will also spur wider interest in wind power. For more information, go to www.windausenergy.com/contactframe.html.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on March 25, 2009, 05:22:54 AM
Funny thing I have had a similar design in my head for a while as this company windaus or whatever...

The gearbox idea is not half bad either...

I am thinking of purchasing 3 rubbermaid trash cans cutting them in half and double stacking them bottom to bottom not 100% yet have not settled on anything yet still curious on other folks ideas ...

I really do value all the excellent input and help with my venture I am thinking the more simplistic the better!

But cheap is good as well. But I will be taking pictures and documenting the process...

Thanks a million guys keep the suggestions comming!

As far as energy storage I do have a micro grid tie unit 250watt max and batteries and charge controllers are rather easy to find as well...
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on March 25, 2009, 07:09:08 PM
Hi Infringer,

That should be an easy design to replicate.

2round end discs, 5 discs with 3 arc slots in each and a roll of galvanized steel or aluminum flashing and a center shaft. As you slide the slotted discs on the flashing, it will shape the arc in it, then it is just a matter of securing the slotted discs to the shaft while twisting it a bit to get the spiral design.

I have about 5 projects going now but as soon as I have them running, I'll replicate a small one (24" or 30" high) just to see what kind of torque it develops. A lot easier than making the blades of a conventional windmill.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on March 25, 2009, 08:55:21 PM
Re: design:

If the outside supports are say 12" wide or more, it would concentrate even more wind to the helical rotor giving it a lower starting speed and a lot more torque.

Take care,

Michel

Edit: Holes in the end and spacer discs would improve air flow.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 01, 2009, 02:45:27 AM
Here is a model of what I was thinking for a VAWT...

I threw this together so I had a better idea of how to do this with rubbermaid trash cans or plastic 55GAL Drums...

But I am thinking on another design that may be better I will post that as soon as I get a picture drawn up something rough ...
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 01, 2009, 02:55:41 AM
Well pardon me if any of you take any offense as you will note I am in no way a nazi or skin head or racial hating individual...

But here is the my other idea which I may settle for thinking on design ...

Think of a swastika with hinges more or less now imagine if when the wind blew half or more then half of one of the blades opened up...

This is possible below will be a picture of an overhead view showing what I believe will be a great vertical axis turbine design!

I would like your opinions on this design I think it will maximize energy production by reducing drag!
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 01, 2009, 04:58:38 AM
I am shocked at the lack of interest in power generation via wind and solar power!

They are working technology that can be replicated ...

It is not coils wound on a tinfoil hat I suppose so it does not make for good chat maybe?

I don't get it its like folks do not even want free energy they just want to talk and listen to a lot of far fetched tech...

I am sure there is other stuff out there yes I agree and you should give things a chance but in the mean time why not pitch in in these areas and build some stuff that works for free power to hold you over for the next big thing.

Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: jadaro2600 on April 01, 2009, 07:14:51 AM
Well pardon me if any of you take any offense as you will note I am in no way a nazi or skin head or racial hating individual...

But here is the my other idea which I may settle for thinking on design ...

Think of a swastika with hinges more or less now imagine if when the wind blew half or more then half of one of the blades opened up...

This is possible below will be a picture of an overhead view showing what I believe will be a great vertical axis turbine design!

I would like your opinions on this design I think it will maximize energy production by reducing drag!

the hinge design is slightly flawed - it's still workable though, what you need are hydraulic brakes to keep the flap from slamming backwards and taring off the rotor, they might as well be spring drawn too, bringing them forward later in the cycle.

slaps some mags on the brakes and you could make a secondary generator - a third if your count each as a generator, it would me ac, ofcourse, you could even use the load-through-coil as the brake.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on April 01, 2009, 07:53:11 AM

Hi Infringer,

Here is a design that uses hinges:

Quote
http://media.photobucket.com/image/new%20wind%20turbine%20design%20hinge/BulBob/VAWTAssembly.jpg

That should work well.

Take care,

Michel
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Mark69 on April 01, 2009, 04:00:55 PM
Hi Infringer, I like your idea of the hinges design, but I think you lose too much power as the wind has to first open the panel then spin it.  I just saw this idea from greenpowerscience.com.  They have the idea to use two vert wind turbines, one on top of the other.  You have one spin one direction and the other spins the opposite direction.  Between the two, you have the "generator" part.  The magnets are on one and the stator part is on the other.  By spinning in opposite directions, you speed up the generator parts allowing you to generate more power.  I thought that was a great idea :)

Just had another idea, you can have multiple rows of magnets, stators and can multiply the power output.  Also, they are showing the use of neo magmets to support the turbines and they double as the bearings to reduce the friction from spinning.

Mark
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 02, 2009, 01:29:13 AM
I am shooting for the original thought I believe that will be easiest to make and in general the less complications the easier the matinence and everything...

Thanks for your input once again... I look forward to what others have to say it is reassuring to know that I am not the only guy out there thinking on a simplistic level but I am a little curious about magnet motors as well like the mylow's and so on so forth. But I know a wind turbine works so rather then waste a boatload of time and money attempting these claims and the many others I would prefer to start something that works and will pay off without a hitch well almost hehe!

The springs were an excellent idea and yes my design did have that flaw thanks for pointing that out but my rotor I believe will be axial flux based therefore I believe the only thing I will need to worry about in that case is the actual hinges no break should really be needed but the thing is no matter what it is it will wear on the bearing so you are most certainly correct!

Thanks
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on April 02, 2009, 04:04:53 AM
Hi Infringer,

I agree that the windmill is not very popular but it is mainly because of city restrictions on erecting one. I will make a vertical unit this summer probably 3 or 4 feet high so as to not offend my neighbors. I already have my axial alternator, charge controller, my inverters and batteries.

I have started to design 2 window motors but not like Bedini has done it as it is too inefficient. The way he shows to set the coil(s) is the worst you can do. The wiring schematic he post is not the one he uses (3 hall effect sensors), so we have to redesign that also... Why????? To protect the innocents maybe...

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 02, 2009, 04:22:47 AM
hughe piggot I believe is the guy to go by...
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on April 02, 2009, 05:33:31 AM
Yes, he is the reference.

One of the site to get much info is:
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html (http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html) Their older site.

Good tricks there for construction. You have to go with a ratio of 4 magnets (on each side) to 3 coils setup and a star configuration for the coil connections. Many designs are outdated but a good read anyway.

Take care,

Michel

Edit: Go with the 2 rotor design, having one rotor (1 set of magnets) in not as efficient.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: clflyguy on April 03, 2009, 03:25:36 PM
 Infringer-
  See if you can get your money back on automotive alt and conversion for it. Go to Otherpower.com and immerse yourself for a few months of quiet reading.... Don't ask them any questions until you have lurked and studied for at least 3 months.
  Do I sound harsh? Not intended, just factual. You can waste a LOT of money and time building marginal junk, or you can be on the
bloody blunt cutting edge of successful homebrew technology and learn how to make your own effective and (relatively) low cost wind
turbine.
  Have you looked at a wind map yet? Do you get decent wind where you are? Auto alt conversions need to spin fast to make any
power, 6 blades is slow, high torque- I know, gearing losses eat up speed and efficiency and geared turbines need higher initial wind
speed to get started.   You said 5 foot blades- do you mean 5' radius and 10' diameter, or 5' total diameter? If 10' diameter then you
might be able to gear up as much as 2.5:1 and still be able to push past cut-in speed... Depends on several factors. If only 5' total
diameter then forget gearing, and build yourself an axial flux alt (ala Otherpower) sized for your blades.
  Don't get mad and don't get discouraged, but DO do all your homework first so you can save some money for good batteries ;)
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 04:12:30 AM
yes according to the wind map from 2007 14mph is common

Anyhow I have made my own observations I have had a decor type wind turbine up for some time now...

So my area is plenty capable of producing power from wind.

I have also read the whole otherpower website nearly did all of it sink in not really but I got 145lb n42 mags and 11lbs of 13 gauge magnetic coil I am working on getting the fiberglass resin and hardener...

I will take the altenator and the replacement stator as a loss for now...

I may do something with it though in the future stationary bicycle for charging possibly not sure yet ...

What I need from everyone is the best coil and magnet setup to achive maximal power I plan on designing a rotor and stator on the top and bottom of my VAWT to maximize power production should be fairly easy I plan to document everything too for those who are interested everything from start to finish but I do need to know the sizes of the rotor and stator and how to properly wind the coils for high output.

Besides that why go elsewhere why not archive the information here as well I see no reason not to have copies of the info here then that way if the website goes dead we still have that info.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 06, 2009, 06:38:17 AM
I like the design using roof flashing but most likely I will be able to obtain my plastic barrels at little or no cost depending...
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: Michelinho on April 06, 2009, 07:22:21 AM


Hi Infringer,

The setup you describe is the Savonius Windmill design, at least for the wind part of it.

Take care,

Michel

Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: clflyguy on April 06, 2009, 04:14:48 PM
14mph average?! YEEhaw! No wonder you want to put one in the air.....

OK, then.... 13 ga. wire, nice & heavy. Sounds like no more than 2-in-hand then. So what are the physical dimensions of your magnets?
How many of them do you have to work with? Are you designing for 12, 24 or 48v? 3phase? 5phase?
We have to size your alternator before we can size your blades. I would suggest you use used brake rotors to help keep the cost down,
and try to find the largest diameter ones you can. If you slip the guy at the Brake Depot (or whatever brake shop you go to) a fiver or
maybe a sixpack he'll probably throw them up on the lathe and smooth the faces for you so long as you swear to him that these are
NOT going back onto a vehicle.
Do you weld? You can save more money doing you own welding- no welder? 3 deep cycle 12v batts in series connected with heavy
cable works well, up to 1/4" thick steel...

I'm looking forward to your build- write back with the info and we can move forward with your design.
Title: Re: I will be building a windturbine I need your help!
Post by: infringer on April 08, 2009, 01:39:27 AM
I am leaning to fiberglass and wood for the rotor and magnets for less drag if need be I will go carbon fiber.

Its all reasonable if you search for resin and hardener ... Just make sure the resin you use is compatible.  I've done fiberglass before and yes I have welded before as well more stick then anything else...

I want to keep everything sturdy yet light weight plus I want to minimize eddy current therefore I will not be using disc breaks sorry for not taking this route it just seems a bit overkill for what you are trying to accomplish when making a home made alternator...

Lightweight and sturdy is what I am shooting for something that will make use of lower wind and handle higher obviously I will need to do some balancing on the stator and rotor it appears that the stator (Stationary portion equipped with coils) is in almost all cases I have seen is larger then the rotor (portion that rotates with the magnets on it) just a hint the way I figure if you take the two barrels a little under half the distance should work and you can make the alternator quite a bit larger in diameter then the barrel itself my goal is roughly 4 inches larger...

Indeed I have 3 seperate posts discussing differnt topics about the build forgive me but this topic is kinda broad I was seeking specific help in the other  posts 

I wish I could do some decent graphics work then I could show you exactly how I will be accomplishing everything but give it time cause it may be a while before I get all the required equipment!