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Author Topic: First electrical power output from a Pyramid  (Read 549229 times)

skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #810 on: December 30, 2007, 01:51:26 PM »
somehow it seams to me that the capacitor or pipe frame has different sizes then mine because if you compare my picture there is more room at the sides for the coil's which should be 25mm in diameter.

Yes... i said this as you posted the pictures of your converter the first time... my converter has exactly the specified dimensions (100 mm width, 120 mm height, measured on the outside of the 12 mm tubes). The capacitor is also exactly as specified, 35 mm x 70 mm (plus the contact area).

Back to the capacitor: yesterday was the question about getting the right capacity. I think there is always a 5% or even 10% error to expect, because although you can make the area of the plates quite exactly, but the spacing between them also influences the capacity directly, and with a specified spacing of 1 mm you can never get it with an absolute error of 0.05 mm or 0.1 mm. So the plate spacing is the biggest source of tolerances in the capacitor. But even commercial capacitors have tolerances of 5% (if they are good) or even 10%.

I don't think that someone gave TT a plan with all the dimensions, so i'm sure they developed 'by chance'.

He didn't use 20 mm steel pipes because this is the only dimension with works, but because it was the only dimension he had in his garage. ;) 
If he only had 25 mm steel pipes, he would have used them as well, and they also would have worked as well. Same with all the other materials, i think. He used 1 mm copper plates for the capacitor because he had them. Of course there might be optimal values for some of the dimensions, which lead to more or less output, but the effect itself (if there is any) will remain the same over a wide range of dimensions and permutations of them.

He stated that e.g. the height of the pyramid is not much important, and only leads to a few % change in the output.

I think, if the effect is for real, then it depends only on some (very few) basic configurations. TT even used different configurations for the converter, and they all worked. V4 looks completely different compared to V6, and both configurations work. V12 would have even another configuration (which we don't know yet), and it worked too. And it worked even better than V6, so we know that V6 is *not* the optimal configuration.

So i think that it's an advantage to slightly vary TT's description of the V6 to get success.

If we all would build *exactly* the same construction, then it would be quite senseless, because then *all* of us would be successful (this would be the best, but most unlikely result), or that *all* of us would be unsuccessful.

But when everybody has a slightly different construction, the chance that one of us will be successful is much higher.


Then the others could change to the exact construction parameters of this person and move forward.

I think this is the best strategy in the given situation, now that we don't have anyone to ask how to do the details.

We don't even know if the 'V6 white paper' is correct in all aspects. As i understood, it was written by more than one person, and TT only authorized it. He might have overlooked some errors. I remember one occasion in his forum where i asked him about the focus point of the pyramid, gave him a drawing i did, and he said this was OK. But it wasn't, as i discovered later. He got so many questions that he didn't have enough time to look closely to each questions, and so he might have 'confirmed' some things that have not been correct.

skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #811 on: December 30, 2007, 02:11:07 PM »
Some remarks to duff:

You are right: replicating exactly an existing prototype is the best way to be successful.

But: to do this, you should have access to this prototype, enough informations about it, and someone to ask.

All this is not the case. We don't even have photos of V6. We have almost nothing, only a text which TT not even has written himself.

I also don't understand, if he HAS a working V6 prototype, and had working on it FOR YEARS, how can it be that he doesn't have photos, and he doesn't have posted them ?  It would be the first thing i would do, because making some photos is much less effort than writing a text, and one picture's worth is more than thousand words, as you know.  ;)

There is no excuse for making no photos. Today everyone has digital cameras with sufficient resolution. It only takes seconds to make a picture. I'm documenting all steps of my construction work with the camera, not only for the forum, but also for ME.

Not doing this would be highly unprofessional.

skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #812 on: December 30, 2007, 02:22:39 PM »
Here is a photo of my converter where you can see the dimensions much better:


skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #813 on: December 30, 2007, 04:52:45 PM »
Has anyone tried different types of graphite rods and looked for differences ?    ???

I have read once again the V6 spec which was posted by TT himself in his own forum.
I'm refering to the german version, because as TT's native language is German, in would expect less errors in the german version.  ;)

In his V6 spec, he writes that graphite rods of 2...3 mm diameter should be used, and he especially mentions pencil rods (german: Bleistiftmine). Also in 'skizze2.pdf' (made by TT ?) pencil rods are mentioned. But in a later posting, he talked about using graphite rods used for motor coals, and that pencil rods would not work.

 ???

At the moment i only have pencil rods, so i will try using them...

georgemay

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #814 on: December 30, 2007, 05:08:57 PM »
Has anyone tried different types of graphite rods and looked for differences ?    ???


Here is another source for graphite rods - woodless pencils.
http://www.pearlpaint.com/shop~ocID~5999~parentID~5992~categoryID~5988~layoutIndicator~vertical.htm
Check you local art stores.
George

duff

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #815 on: December 30, 2007, 05:12:44 PM »

@Walter

I have not completed the V6 but I have posted pictures of my progress in the photo section of the yahoo group.

When complete it I will post my results and if anything significant or successful I will post all my notes and pictures with a video in ONE post.

In the V6 white paper he does refer to sketches and we have all but sketch 1. I think sketch 1 was of the frame.

We do know that Thomas was upset on Dec 14 over the discussion here and something had been misinterpreted. So something is WRONG with the implementation as is was talked about in the discussion.

We have to determine what in the discussion upset Thomas. If we do then is will probably lead to a successful replication.

I think time would be better spend working on V6 rather than beginning work on another version. If we consider that the V6 white paper is correct because this is what Thomas released to protect himself, then if our implementation does not work we have to assume we've done something wrong. We have to try to determine what it is.


@neptune

Yes, I agree with you. Materials in different countries are manufactured to different specs. For example I had to use 3/4" (19.05mm) tubing on the frame because 20mm is not available here.

But I think for us to make major deviations on our initial build is a mistake.

Ok - here is one of the things I think upset Thomas.

It was the discussion over sand fill level. Actually I think neptune had it right.

Thomas states:
Quote
The energy pick-up tubing must now completely (however loosely!) filled with quartz sand

This is my personal opinion and it may be WRONG.

When he said completely, I believe he meant all the way to the top of the entire U-shaped structure including the top horizontal piece.

Why - because look at the construction steps that were laid out.
   1. Install left graphite rod
   2. Install left 2.5 mm (#10 wire) coil
   3. Install right graphite rod
   4. Bore fill holes for salt water solution
   5. Install right coil
   6. Install capacitor
   7. Hang unit in center of pyramid
   8. Fill with sand

Assumption: So he must have created small fill holes and allowed the sand to trickle in like an hour glass.

If this is true he has no way to determine the level until it is completely full.


@Gustav22

Quote
Are you referring to Thomas' statement that the graphite rods should be able to move and be hung up in a way so that their position is not fixed?

Thomas states:
Quote
On the opposite side put likewise a graphiterod (2-3mm diameter pencil rod) freely hanging into the tube.

As I approach this in my own construction I'm thinking this is what he meant. This would put less stress on the rods as the sand was put in but it might also allow the to move left or right. So some kind of restraint  needs to be in place so it can swing but not move right or left.


@skywatcher

I realize that there may be better ways to implement things but usually one establishes a basic working unit before one starts extrapolation.

I also have concerns over the accuracy of what Thomas released mainly because English was not his native language but I think he made an honest effort to share what he had discovered.


@all

I don't have the answers and I don't usually post much but I felt this effort was starting to loose some direction. I want us all to succeed and between everyone there is a lot of talent here.


-Duff


neptune

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #816 on: December 30, 2007, 05:30:25 PM »
@Skywatcher. In your discussion about graphite and pencil rods, you refer to "motor coals" By this, I assume you mean the graphite electrodes used in DC electric motors to connect the supply to the armature via the commutator. In Great Britain, and also I believe the USA , we call these things "Carbon Brushes "  As a washing machine engineer, I use them every day, but have never seen any of suitable shape to be used for this converter.
           I am still studying the v4 photo. There are at least 2 places where the circuit looks like it may connect to the copper tube. One is just below the T piece at top left, and the other is the bare copper wire that seems to emerge from the capacitor [lower left corner] and go towards the blue thing. The hardest thing is trying to find the 2 output wires of the central capacitor. Your views would be very welcome.

starcruiser

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #817 on: December 30, 2007, 05:34:59 PM »
Has anyone read this info on Les Brown? It may provide some additional insight. He (Les) mentions that the Pyramid must be built with exact dimensions relating to the great pyramid to get the best results. Also I read that the quartz sand is the storage medium for the energy and if this is accurate the graphite rods are taps to that energy. also the Pyramid base must be grounded to channel the energy from the apex to the collector/converter. If this is true then the collector is the storage unit (capacitor) and the work (voltage) is extracted from the connections to the converter and the ground.

It is/was also mentioned that the energy in the pyramid should be tapped otherwise it will discharge it self when it reaches a certain charge level then start over again. So I would assume this means a load should be connected to continue to draw energy. Just some of what I ran across.

I do plan on building a pyramid but want to do a bit more research to get several different perspectives on the building and operation.

Hope this is of some help in getting some results.

skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #818 on: December 30, 2007, 05:48:25 PM »
Thomas states:
Quote
The energy pick-up tubing must now completely (however loosely!) filled with quartz sand

This is my personal opinion and it may be WRONG.

When he said completely, I believe he meant all the way to the top of the entire U-shaped structure including the top horizontal piece.

Why - because look at the construction steps that were laid out.
   1. Install left graphite rod
   2. Install left 2.5 mm (#10 wire) coil
   3. Install right graphite rod
   4. Bore fill holes for salt water solution
   5. Install right coil
   6. Install capacitor
   7. Hang unit in center of pyramid
   8. Fill with sand

Assumption: So he must have created small fill holes and allowed the sand to trickle in like an hour glass.

You may be right regarding the point that also the upper section of the converter should be filled completely with sand.
This makes a lot of sense, and i will try it this way.

But i think with 'fill holes' he meant the small holes for filling the water into the lower part of the converter.   ???

For practical reasons, i will do it this way:

1. converter consists of two sections: the lower part (U-shaped section) and the upper part (double-T shaped sections)
2. both sections are soldered, but the junction between the two sections is not soldered to allow disassembly
3. drill the two filling holes in the lower part of the U-section (at different niveaus, as specified in TT's spec)
4. fill the lower part of the U-section with sand, up to a few mm above the lower end of the graphite rods
5. connect a small piece of copper wire to the top of the graphite rods to allow further contacting
6. stick the graphite rods a few mm into the sand, in the middle of the tubes, so that they can not drift away
7. fill rest of the sand into the U-section, always controlling that the graphite rods remain in the middle of the tubes
8. put together the U-section and the double-T section
9. install the coils and solder them to the graphite-rods (use the 10 mm holes on the top for soldering, see my pictures above)
10. close the right and left openings where the wires enter it, using plastilin or hot-glue
11. fill the rest of the converter (upper section) with sand using one of the 10 mm holes on the top (the other hole should be closed before)
12. close the last hole on top of the converter using copper foil and adhesive tape.
13. install the central capacitor and connect the coils
14. install the converter in the pyramid
15. fill salt water into the converter using the small holes at the lower side of the converter, according to TT's spec

BTW, in the plan made by 'Acerzw', which has been approved by TT, the sand is only in the U-shaped section of the converter.   ???

skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #819 on: December 30, 2007, 05:59:36 PM »
@Skywatcher. In your discussion about graphite and pencil rods, you refer to "motor coals" By this, I assume you mean the graphite electrodes used in DC electric motors to connect the supply to the armature via the commutator. In Great Britain, and also I believe the USA , we call these things "Carbon Brushes "  As a washing machine engineer, I use them every day, but have never seen any of suitable shape to be used for this converter.

Yes, carbon brushes is the right term. I think he meant to use raw material which is being used in workshops for making custom carbon brushes. This raw material has d diameter of 6 mm, and must be turned down to 2-3 mm, which is a very dirty business and also has the risk that the rods will break. I have tried it with thick graphite pencils i bought in an art-shop, and they broke every time.  :(

duff

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #820 on: December 30, 2007, 06:14:17 PM »

You may be right regarding the point that also the upper section of the converter should be filled completely with sand.
This makes a lot of sense, and i will try it this way.

But i think with 'fill holes' he meant the small holes for filling the water into the lower part of the converter.   ???

For practical reasons, i will do it this way:

1. converter consists of two sections: the lower part (U-shaped section) and the upper part (double-T shaped sections)
2. both sections are soldered, but the junction between the two sections is not soldered to allow disassembly
3. drill the two filling holes in the lower part of the U-section (at different niveaus, as specified in TT's spec)
4. fill the lower part of the U-section with sand, up to a few mm above the lower end of the graphite rods
5. connect a small piece of copper wire to the top of the graphite rods to allow further contacting
6. stick the graphite rods a few mm into the sand, in the middle of the tubes, so that they can not drift away
7. fill rest of the sand into the U-section, always controlling that the graphite rods remain in the middle of the tubes
8. put together the U-section and the double-T section
9. install the coils and solder them to the graphite-rods (use the 10 mm holes on the top for soldering, see my pictures above)
10. close the right and left openings where the wires enter it, using plastilin or hot-glue
11. fill the rest of the converter (upper section) with sand using one of the 10 mm holes on the top (the other hole should be closed before)
12. close the last hole on top of the converter using copper foil and adhesive tape.
13. install the central capacitor and connect the coils
14. install the converter in the pyramid
15. fill salt water into the converter using the small holes at the lower side of the converter, according to TT's spec

BTW, in the plan made by 'Acerzw', which has been approved by TT, the sand is only in the U-shaped section of the converter.   ???

When I said fill holes for the sand I was referring to drilling small holes in the top of the horzonal piece, which Thomas does not mention, but if the unit was already hanging then he had to have used additional fill holes.

It appears that Thomas was not very attentive to details - Yes that bothers me also. I noticed it numerous times in the forum. Maybe he was preoccupied or pressed for time.


-Duff

neptune

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #821 on: December 30, 2007, 07:13:52 PM »
@ Tigrotto. You seem to constantly remind us that we are wasting our time.I remember that you once said that as a physicist, you had some theoretical understanding of how this might work. If you have this understanding, then you must have some idea where this energy comes from, and how to demonstrate its presence. If this is true, then it would be a good idea to share it with us. There is only one thing more boring than wasting time. And that is watching other people wasting time.
If you REALLY believe we are wasting time, why do you keep visiting these pages? No offence, I am just curious.

Walter Hofmann

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #822 on: December 30, 2007, 10:11:12 PM »
Hi all,
maybe here is something encouraging. yesterday and Today I used a big so called "booster capacitor "like they use in car stereos with ! Farad 16/25V and connected them instead of the big plate capacitor with the original V6 converter but there was nothing happen no higher voltage. then I changed the whole setup to similar what I think is V4 what means both graphitew rods connected together and the beginning of the left coil and the end of the left coil with the beginning of the right coil, the end of the right coil with one pol of the "middle capacitor" and with the pos.pol from the "booster capacitor"and the DVM. the negative pole of the booster capacitor and the DVM connected to the pyramide frame. the pyramid frame is now on three side's coverd with 1/4 inch drywall ( rigips) and the result was that the booster capacitor was going from 0.035V start within 4 hours up to 0.735V.
I think thats something like a proof.
I have attached a picture sorry the mess it was just made as a quick test .
what do you guys say?
greetings
walt

skywatcher

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #823 on: December 30, 2007, 10:23:05 PM »
@walt:

When i look at your picture, i see that both coils are left-handed.

One of them should be left-handed, but the other should be right-handed.

In TT's spec, the left-handed coil is on the side where the shorter graphite rod is.
(don't know if this has any significance)

Please look at Reply #752 on page 51 (by duff) there's a picture how it should look like.

Did you use the capacitor (charge and discharge) shortly before making the experiment ?
Sometimes capacitors are building up charge without getting any input from outside.
To be sure, it would be best to use two identical capacitors: one for charging, and the other (disconnected) as reference.

Walter Hofmann

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Re: First electrical power output from a Pyramid
« Reply #824 on: December 30, 2007, 10:43:37 PM »
hi skywatcher,
you are right with the coils now but I had to change them for the new setup what realy brought something up. sure I did discharge the capacitor for many hours with a 1 ohm resistor.
You know now after all this tests I believe like a few just mentioned too that TT did not really look in to his description especially in the details and that some points are maybe missing or interpreted wrong.
you are good you know what one of this booster capacitors cost??? hundrteds of dollars and this is to much for my shoestring budged.
Oh by the way here is a picture 1 hour later and the voltage is allready up to 0.774V
greetings
walt


@walt:

When i look at your picture, i see that both coils are left-handed.

One of them should be left-handed, but the other should be right-handed.

In TT's spec, the left-handed coil is on the side where the shorter graphite rod is.
(don't know if this has any significance)

Please look at Reply #752 on page 51 (by duff) there's a picture how it should look like.

Did you use the capacitor (charge and discharge) shortly before making the experiment ?
Sometimes capacitors are building up charge without getting any input from outside.
To be sure, it would be best to use two identical capacitors: one for charging, and the other (disconnected) as reference.