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Author Topic: Knitel's InfinityPump  (Read 130347 times)

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #195 on: February 21, 2009, 10:39:19 AM »
hi wiz,

if you pressurize the supply tank, it will raise the water by itself.  you will need no weight in the cylinder.

with the cylinder full of water, still with a portion of your 49kg/cm2 (pressure will go down with increase of volume being pressurized), your 500g will fall thru v2, since the pressure is the same everywhere now.

at this point you are almost back to the start of the cycle.  all you have to do is pressurize the supply tank, without an external source, to original pressure and remove the pressure in the cylinder. :(

tom

Quote
if you pressurize the supply tank, it will raise the water by itself.  you will need no weight in the cylinder.

this can't be right (only some ammount at start cause of lowering level of bottom supply container but then stops) cause still water in pipe has 10g/cm2 weight by gravity.
so swimmer must have weight over 1kg suck it further up (if given 1:100=inpipe:cylinder (surface))
if applied preassure on air is over 50kg/100cm2 then is is bigger then 500g/cm2 and water in input pipe (all the time) tries to go to cilinder if it has space to go in
since water has properties that can not be made smaller volume by appliyng preassure.

...but what I would like to know is what happens with preassure at bottom surface of swimmer when V2 is opened since there is water "shield" between swimmer and preassurized
air outside given that water has unpressurizeable property...would that make preassure (that will make swimmer go up) on bootom of swimmer any smaller.
(V2 is biger and air bubbling in container at same time that water goes out)
Or would preassure on bootom of swimmer rise immidiately ?

i know this is a streach...

and another one
this is question outside actuall InfinityPump

Two closed boxes and only one is preassurized
between them is some pipe with some V valve on it.
Is there such valve or combination of valves that will allow exchange of some fluid (not by primary pressure - something else is pumping water) but wouldn't allow transfer of primary preassure from one box to other.

something like on animation...but here cycle by cycle pressure is still lost ? is it ?

many thanx
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 11:16:35 AM by wizkycho »

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #196 on: February 21, 2009, 11:07:23 AM »
Hi Igor,
the problem I see with the pressurized air is,
that the air will also come to the lower side of
the weight in the main cylinder and then you again have no
advantage, cause the pressurized air will also push against the weight
to not go down but to push it up in the cylinder...

So this does not help there..

Did you look in my proposal to use the hydrostatic paradoxon
and use the bigger tube at the lower watersurface for the pipe ?

Regards, Stefan.

...I would need further explanation since I'm still heaving problem of "visualizing" and putting this paradox in perspective...
I certanly can apply it where pipe enters cylinder... this is diferent...this is other way arround and preassure doesn't multiply

i see for certain here that inner pipe is shorter by small ammount of height of your Addon

further speculation will be helpfull

thx
Wiz

multiuser

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #197 on: February 21, 2009, 11:51:41 AM »
@ tagor


YEAH, COOL, i tried it - the water runns really!!!! COOOOOOL

sushimoto

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #198 on: February 21, 2009, 01:38:24 PM »
...I would need further explanation since I'm still heaving problem of "visualizing" and putting this paradox in perspective...
I certanly can apply it where pipe enters cylinder... this is diferent...this is other way arround and preassure doesn't multiply

i see for certain here that inner pipe is shorter by small ammount of height of your Addon

further speculation will be helpfull

thx
Wiz

At this point I am happy to bring King Hans to King Igor ;D
Hans would be helpful pbly.

If we do now have peace beetween the two kingdoms, i finally like to conclude it with my new footer:
hope, somebody can translate it by meaning..

DAMIT DAS MÖGLICHE ENTSTEHT MUSS IMMER WIEDER DAS UNMÖGLICHE VERSUCHT WERDEN

Best luck,
sushi

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #199 on: February 21, 2009, 02:12:15 PM »
Quote
this can't be right (only some ammount at start cause of lowering level of bottom supply container but then stops) cause still water in pipe has 10g/cm2 weight by gravity.
so swimmer must have weight over 1kg suck it further up (if given 1:100=inpipe:cylinder (surface))
if applied preassure on air is over 50kg/100cm2 then is is bigger then 500g/cm2 and water in input pipe (all the time) tries to go to cilinder if it has space to go in
since water has properties that can not be made smaller volume by appliyng preassure.

hi wiz,

let's start with a post from another reply

Quote
maximal preassure of air that can be applied on bottom of floater
still be able to go down is 49Kg (less then 50Kg) per 100cm2. right ? (lets say at first no friction on floater:))

this is not the right way to express air (gas) pressure.  since a gas is compressible, just looking at it (in a closed container) we can't really tell how much is there as compared to a liquid or solid.  to know how many cubic feet (or any other unit, could be a metric measure) the container holds, we need to know the psi (pressure per square inch).  after reading closer i see what you meant was .49kg/cm2 (amount of pressure per square cm).  this is what you would see on an average air gauge, like for checking tire pressure.   the real pressure (read on an absolute gauge, not common) would add the atmospheric pressure too.  my mistake for thinking you were saying 49kg/cm2.

to continue,  maybe best to put a legend on your drawing of the starting position showing all sizes, valve status, pressures in each area and anything else you might think needed.  from there i will try to describe what happens when the unit is put into motion.

fair enough?

tom

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #200 on: February 21, 2009, 06:21:44 PM »
Your dreams are useless, what we need is proof of concept, repeatable results.
This begins exactly where dreaming ends so maybe it's time for you to wake up  :)

Marco.

very important: (for who doesn't now that)

dream(tought, idea...) is first then and only then comes proof of concept...or not.

Wiz

hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #201 on: February 21, 2009, 08:12:19 PM »

you can look also at :

La fontaine de Heron ( used in the flowing water of Versaille )


how it works in english
http://www.history.rochester.edu/steam/hero/

you can read the pic but text in french
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ron_d'Alexandrie


Here is the whole system described in detail. It alsy shows why this is NOT a perpetual motion machine and why it stops after a short time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heron%27s_fountain

Hans von Lieven

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #202 on: February 22, 2009, 11:25:09 AM »
Hi all !

First:
I'm not drawing this pictures to keep You occupied from something more important
please All ! give it a tought

Paradox still applies but now the height of input pump is actually in milimeters (not 5m),
so initiall preassure must be smaller by significant ammount.

have I, by lowering paradox at entrance, created some other impposibility ?
I think not, V1 can still hold preasssure when closed not to allow water in input "pipe" to fall down.

Wiz

hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #203 on: February 22, 2009, 11:48:47 AM »
@ wizkycho


This cannot work either, for very much the same reasons as the previous version.

Hans von Lieven

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #204 on: February 22, 2009, 12:05:50 PM »
@ wizkycho


This cannot work either, for very much the same reasons as the previous version.

Hans von Lieven

certain positive:
.most of water here is allready lifted so input path to cilinder is not 5m.it is now and can be drawn/made 1mm

maybe negative:
.new paradox point might have been created at a bottom ...but that allso is in mm.

counter maybe negative:
although I don't think so cause water is not solid. it will create many small wortex-es.that I think will add to mechanism of pump up action.
...but now water from bottom container allso has to climb millimeters to refill the addon tank

You don't even think it deserves experiment. Is there some simmilar experiment ?

Wiz

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #205 on: February 22, 2009, 12:46:17 PM »
hi wiz,

the thing you may not be understanding is called a column.  when we talk about forces (especially gravity) we break the subject (here it's water, a liquid) down to smaller units (say cubic centimeters,  cm3).  now if we stack these units, we get a column.  in your new drawing, can you not still see a continuous column of 1 cm3s stacked 5 meters high?  i do, so you still have the same problem. 

btw, have you checked your messages here lately?

tom

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #206 on: February 22, 2009, 01:05:12 PM »
hi wiz,

i don't know if this page will help, but if you can follow it, it will help you with your designs.

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~vawter/PhysicsNet/Topics/Pressure/HydroStatic.html

tom

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #207 on: February 22, 2009, 02:19:38 PM »
hi wiz,

the thing you may not be understanding is called a column.  when we talk about forces (especially gravity) we break the subject (here it's water, a liquid) down to smaller units (say cubic centimeters,  cm3).  now if we stack these units, we get a column.  in your new drawing, can you not still see a continuous column of 1 cm3s stacked 5 meters high?  i do, so you still have the same problem. 

btw, have you checked your messages here lately?

tom

I certanly see a column but tought it might be realized through rows...in other words there are rows now...so something should change at least preassure distribution.
would love If someone could make comparison using force/lenght of lever analogy of input pipe now widened.

yes I did.

Why ?

Wiz


tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #208 on: February 22, 2009, 02:30:32 PM »
hi wiz

i sent you a message, but don't see a reply.  also from the tone of your answer, it sounds like you may not have received it.  can you confirm?

tom

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #209 on: February 22, 2009, 02:38:45 PM »
hi wiz,

did you understand this from the link i gave above?

Why the pressure does not depend upon the shape of the vessel or the amount of fluid in the vessel rests upon three things:
  a. Pressure is force per unit area and this is not same as the total weight of the liquid in a vessel.
  b. A fluid can not support its self without a container. Thus the walls of the container exert a pressure on the fluid equal to the pressure of the fluid at that depth.
  c. The pressure at given level is transmitted equally throughout the fluid to be the same value at that level.

tom