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Author Topic: Knitel's InfinityPump  (Read 130366 times)

sushimoto

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #105 on: February 19, 2009, 02:43:09 PM »
stefan,

again i see you have avoided me.  have you read my post with the numbers yet?  even if you think i am full of s**t, please acknowledge.  what more do you want?
if i should rewrite my post, i will.  if you give me your sizes for the parts you use, i'll reference them.

as you know from my position in the E.L.S.A. thread, i am not a naysayer.  i am the first to be happy if something works.  this one just can not the way it is given.

TALK TO ME!!

tom

Hi Tom,
I already asked all these question one week ago (Friday 13th:).
Since then, i have not seen any serious calculations from Archimedes.

In the original Thread, were the original Idea came from Gravitator.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6660.30

Now, suddenly its "Knitel's pump" and this is the best place to get ignored by egocentric people.

Never mind, a good thing has been born and that is what counts.

best,
sushi


wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2009, 03:31:20 PM »
Hi Tom,
I already asked all these question one week ago (Friday 13th:).
Since then, i have not seen any serious calculations from Archimedes.

In the original Thread, were the original Idea came from Gravitator.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6660.30

Now, suddenly its "Knitel's pump" and this is the best place to get ignored by egocentric people.

Never mind, a good thing has been born and that is what counts.

best,
sushi

@all

Every now and then I gave bouyancy a tought as the mechanism that can do "it"...(haven't we all)  I allways stumboled on completing circle. Gravitrons idea has nothing to do with bouyancy and that is 60 to 70% of (50% path and 10% to 20% of defining properties of weight)..InfinityPump. So please call it Knitel's InfinityPump cause I made it as whole possible or call it Knitel-Gravitron's InfinityPump or Archimedes InfinityPump cause he is the guy that made it start in a first place.
Without Gravitron threre would be no sucction part... I added weight's lighter then water properties and let it do it's bouayncy and closed the circle...from this point of view anyone could have done it...(well except Tom and Hans)
but indeed I done it...and I still can not believe it is afterall that plain.

So it is called Knitel's InfinityPump...because 60%-70% and closing the loop is done by that fabulous, wonderfull, brilliant, careing, goodlooking, civilized, magicall, explorer, brain stormer, extraordinary mind, protector of weak, justfull, leader, strong carrisma,with prodigy, dexterity, agility,...what to say then perfect...

the very same Knitel Igor

Wiz

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2009, 03:34:20 PM »
hi wiz,

Quote
my numbers are from -infinity to +infinity and that is range in which this device works

i understand this, but we first have to show 1 size working so it can be scaled from there.

Quote
You haven't given any real numbers or equations because, according to what you tried to explain pumping in any existing todays device is impossible.
You gave false numbers without diaemters, without density, without volumes

not true.  my post was full of numbers.  it's not that i think it can not pump using the weights, it's because if you have the weight volume large enough to float, there will not be any room left for a stroke (up & down).


Quote
]...please can you comment my last animation and picture with Many weights cause I commented your numbers allready three times...[/

if we make it work, that will be a clever way to scale it up.

Quote
I made this last picture cause you claim that weight and no matter of its ammount "suspended" in air can not make underpreassure and make water go up.

not true.  this can pump/syphon water as long as it has room to travel (stroke).


Quote
Allso with Your numbers you claimed that diameter of input pipe doesn't matter.
We eventually agreed that diameter counts...

you still seem to be confused here.  if the cylinder/piston diameter is the same size as the input tube diameter, then the weight of the piston/weight only has to be a little heavier than the weight of the water in the tube.  if you increase the area (diameter) of the cylinder/piston and leave the tube the same, then you have to add weight to the piston/weight.  for every square unit you add, you have to add the amount equal to the square unit of the tube.  from there you can increase the tube diameter (up to the cylinder/piston diameter) without adding more weight to the piston/weight.

Quote
so I lefted diameter constant and added 3 more weights and they can now be 3 times lighter (boyancy per each easier) and still be as whole heavier then initiall one and therefore more destin to be able to pump.

this is just scaling up.  but all parts of the added units have to use the same relationships as the first.  these extra assy don't change the over all design other than create more output.
just like when you add cylinders/pistons to you internal combustion engines.  these extra units don't effect the principle of the internal combustion engine.  one is enough to show how it works.

Quote
would be nice if you would take one picture and make some arrow on it to point where exactly do you see problem in operation.[/b

the problem that i point to is the fact the piston/weight has to displace so much water for its given size, it leaves no room for a stroke.  if it can't move, it can't work.


thanks for your patience and allowing me the chance to explain.

i'll be working on a "numbers" page for stefan.  maybe when posted, you will see the detail i'm trying to get across.

tom

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2009, 04:00:42 PM »
hi stefan,

i think i found where you are going wrong.

Quote
So the weight must only be heavier than 15.7 Kg to suck up the water through the
pipe...


this is not a 100% true.  from your first set of givens, you said the tube would have 1 cm2 (not 1 cm diameter).  so for your above statement to be true, the swimmer can not exceed 6.369 cm2.  did that turn on a light?

the 100kg isn't applied to just the 1 cm2 of the tube unless the swimmer is only 1 cm2.  it is divided over the intire area evenly.  so if you have a 100 cm2 swimmer, your weight would have to be 100 x 15.7kg (tube area 1 cm2) = 1570 kg.  much more volume (and mass) than 100kg.

i'm sure you want to tell me i'm wrong here and i don't need to go on so i will stop.  but this point is what hans was trying to get you to learn by studying.

tom

PhiScience

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2009, 04:27:18 PM »
Hi,

When working with hydraulics you must use the correct formulas to base your answers on.
 
5 meter of head = 0.499 871 996 66 kilogram-force/square centimeter.

This may help  http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm

Wayne

sushimoto

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2009, 04:35:07 PM »
@all

<SNIP>

So it is called Knitel's InfinityPump...because 60%-70% and closing the loop is done by that fabulous, wonderfull, brilliant, careing, goodlooking, civilized, magicall, explorer, brain stormer, extraordinary mind, protector of weak, justfull, leader, strong carrisma,with prodigy, dexterity, agility,...what to say then perfect...

the very same Knitel Igor

Wiz

Okay Wiz,
Whatever, However.

I love it. And I love you too, if you want. ;D

....And what do you think about of adding a spring to store some of the gravitational energy
in order to support the buoyancy - upward motion?

best,
sushi

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2009, 04:36:09 PM »
Hi,

When working with hydraulics you must use the correct formulas to base your answers on.
 
5 meter of head = 0.499 871 996 66 kilogram-force/square centimeter.

This may help  http://www.onlineconversion.com/pressure.htm

Wayne

i knew i should have checked his work, considering 1 cm3 weights only 1 gram. in 5 meters you have 500 cm3, so 500 x 1 = 500 grams.  pretty close numbers.  thanks for the correction.

stefan, as you can imagine, this will change the values, but the principle still is the same.

tom

xnonix

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2009, 04:41:03 PM »
hi stefan,

i think i found where you are going wrong.


this is not a 100% true.  from your first set of givens, you said the tube would have 1 cm2 (not 1 cm diameter).  so for your above statement to be true, the swimmer can not exceed 6.369 cm2.  did that turn on a light?

the 100kg isn't applied to just the 1 cm2 of the tube unless the swimmer is only 1 cm2.  it is divided over the intire area evenly.  so if you have a 100 cm2 swimmer, your weight would have to be 100 x 15.7kg (tube area 1 cm2) = 1570 kg.  much more volume (and mass) than 100kg.

i'm sure you want to tell me i'm wrong here and i don't need to go on so i will stop.  but this point is what hans was trying to get you to learn by studying.

tom




Hi all, nice thread...

Then tbird,

are you saying that if you put the 5 meters tube coming from ocean you need a weight in the other side equivalent to the ocean's weigth for sucking the water?

Just trying to understand the 2 versions.

Thx,

xnonix

hartiberlin

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2009, 04:49:44 PM »
hi stefan,

i think i found where you are going wrong.


this is not a 100% true.  from your first set of givens, you said the tube would have 1 cm2 (not 1 cm diameter).  so for your above statement to be true, the swimmer can not exceed 6.369 cm2.  did that turn on a light?

the 100kg isn't applied to just the 1 cm2 of the tube unless the swimmer is only 1 cm2.  it is divided over the intire area evenly.  so if you have a 100 cm2 swimmer, your weight would have to be 100 x 15.7kg (tube area 1 cm2) = 1570 kg.  much more volume (and mass) than 100kg.

i'm sure you want to tell me i'm wrong here and i don't need to go on so i will stop.  but this point is what hans was trying to get you to learn by studying.

tom


Sorry, I meant the tube to have a 1 cm diameter.

So the height of 5Meter will have 15.7 kg of water in it.
As the air pressure is pressing on the water surface,
it is just as a syringe, which needs to pull 15.7 Liters of water up 5 Meters
high.
So you need to overcome 15.7 Kg of weight....

Tom do you mean, the dimensions of the 100 kg swimmer body play any role
in it ?  because the 1 cm diameter pipe is changed into a bigger cylinder
at the top at the V1 valve ?

Okay, than make the swimmer weight body 2000 Kg, where is the problem ?

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2009, 04:51:18 PM »


Hi all, nice thread...

Then tbird,

are you saying that if you put the 5 meters tube coming from ocean you need a weight in the other side equivalent to the ocean's weigth for sucking the water?

Just trying to understand the 2 versions.

Thx,

xnonix


hi xnonix,

i think most of the water weights are using fresh water, so if you use sea water, the weights will have to be a little heavier.  you don't need the weight of the sea, just a little more than in the tube per square unit of area of tube diameter.  did i say that well enough?

tom

hartiberlin

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2009, 05:14:26 PM »
Okay, Tom,
now I see, what you mean, if we compare it with a syringe,
sucking up water,
we have to calculate in the diameter ratios of the "syringe rod" versus the needle diameter,
so in our example
the ratios of the diameter of the main big cylinder versus the right 1 cm diameter tube.

So the pressure ratios are behaving like a lever ratio,
where the
diameter tube 1 / diameter tube 2 = watermass1 / watermass 2

So if we have watermass 1 = 15.7 Kg  and diameter tube 1 = 1 cm
and diameter of tube 2= 100 cm we get for watermass 2= 1570 Kg.

Okay, so we need more than 1570 Kg to suck the 15.7 Kg in the small
tube up.

Now the question is, if we make the weight 2000 kg,
if we can make it in such a volume, that it will
still have a boyuant force up, when it is at the bottom
of the main cylinder and valve V3 opens ?



tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2009, 05:19:02 PM »
Sorry, I meant the tube to have a 1 cm diameter.

So the height of 5Meter will have 15.7 kg of water in it.
As the air pressure is pressing on the water surface,
it is just as a syringe, which needs to pull 15.7 Liters of water up 5 Meters
high.
So you need to overcome 15.7 Kg of weight....

Tom do you mean, the dimensions of the 100 kg swimmer body play any role
in it ?  because the 1 cm diameter pipe is changed into a bigger cylinder
at the top at the V1 valve ?

Okay, than make the swimmer weight body 2000 Kg, where is the problem ?

hi stefan,

the tube can not have that much weight in it.  volume of a cylinder is pie (3.14) times radius squared (1cm) times height (500cm).  so we have 3.14 x 1 x 500 = 1570 cm3  1 cm3 of water weights 1 gram so we have 1570 grams.  isn't that 1.57 kg?

air pressure has no place in these calcs, except to the degree the valve (like your thumb over the end of a straw) at the top prevents the water from flexing its weight and falling back into the supply.  let's not get distracted yet.

i see you just posted again.  i'll pass this along and then address the other.

tom


xnonix

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2009, 05:39:09 PM »
Someone wants to make the model in this software? Its free lincensing. As I am computer engineer I need to see the system working to believe it.

http://www.filebuzz.com/fileinfo/17608/20sim_Viewer.html

xnonix

tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2009, 05:55:45 PM »
Okay, Tom,
now I see, what you mean, if we compare it with a syringe,
sucking up water,
we have to calculate in the diameter ratios of the "syringe rod" versus the needle diameter,
so in our example
the ratios of the diameter of the main big cylinder versus the right 1 cm diameter tube.

So the pressure ratios are behaving like a lever ratio,
where the
diameter tube 1 / diameter tube 2 = watermass1 / watermass 2

So if we have watermass 1 = 15.7 Kg  and diameter tube 1 = 1 cm
and diameter of tube 2= 100 cm we get for watermass 2= 1570 Kg.

Okay, so we need more than 1570 Kg to suck the 15.7 Kg in the small
tube up.

Now the question is, if we make the weight 2000 kg,
if we can make it in such a volume, that it will
still have a boyuant force up, when it is at the bottom
of the main cylinder and valve V3 opens ?




hi stefan,

not sure if what you said is true here, but if we get to the same place for the same basic reason, good!

the volume to make it float is where the problem lies.  by the time it is big enough, there is no more room to travel.

in your other post, you asked about shape.  can you now see it has to increase to DISPLACE more water weight than it weights itself?  it doesn't matter if it is long and skinny or short and fat.  it still needs to DISPLACE 2000 kg (last size suggested) of water.  how big is that?  how much water is that?

are we getting a handle now?

tom

sushimoto

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #119 on: February 19, 2009, 05:57:53 PM »
Someone wants to make the model in this software? Its free lincensing. As I am computer engineer I need to see the system working to believe it.

http://www.filebuzz.com/fileinfo/17608/20sim_Viewer.html

xnonix

It is restrictet.
You can not save your work in the freeware-version.

 :(