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Author Topic: Knitel's InfinityPump  (Read 106159 times)

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2009, 06:09:06 PM »
Stefan, tbird, wizkycho, and all

 What I posted on « Reply #50 on: Today at 03:04:28 PM » of course will not work LOL. It was meant  to show a point. With a piston or without there are some of the same properties to deal with. Adding a piston inside is allot of extra friction and you are having to deal with vacuum, valving, and more. I just don't see a working device. At best I see the weight at the bottom and the valves open to to try to allow fluid in and it goes out and it goes nowhere. How are you going to control those valves with the reaction of the system to work in sequence?

Thus the reason I said.
After long evaluation of this design. My findings are you would be better off taking out the piston. At least you would have better reaction for a short time, for what it is worth.
A short time watching the water poor out till the drip stops.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2009, 06:09:06 PM »

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2009, 06:23:06 PM »
@tbird

I'see what you mean. but diameter of input pipe maters.

If pipe is smaller in diameter then it holds less weight of water per meter of altitude(height). Bigger pipe in diameter holds larger weight of water per meter of height. isn't it so ?

So in order to lift water column to 1m height you would need less energy (m*g*h) to do so if pipe is smaller in diameter cause weight of this 1m column of water is smaller. can we agree here ?

If this is not so then with say 100W of input energy you would be able to lift infinite weight of water at 1m height. and here we have a type of nonworkable overunity.

By the way.

Calculus and mathematics is nothing more then attempt of describing laws of physics,
Sometimes it is more egzact and sometimes just like artist painter tries to capture natures beauty - it is never that beautifull.
Physics is first.
After that proper mathematics (with right brushes and pallete colours) should be applied to describe what was obviously seen.
False Mathematics can allso be used to overpaint someones sight and to blind one and convince that what really is - isn't. hope you are not doing it.

Wiz
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 06:46:17 PM by wizkycho »

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2009, 06:41:07 PM »
@ABhammer

yes, without piston (MP as heavy in air and allso ultra light in water object moveable ponton type part), water will eventually stop driping,
allso all of the cilinder's water and pipe water will end up in container below and water will overflow and
spill outside of animation boundaries.

that is why I draw a piston (MP as heavy in air and allso antigravity properties in water object, moveable ponton type part), see !

Wiz


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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2009, 06:41:07 PM »
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Offline sushimoto

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2009, 06:50:16 PM »
@ABHammer:
Your concept will not work.
Air will come in and kill it.
You need the weight and the valves.

@TBird,
I don´t understand your problem.

You can make the weight also 1000 kg
if it will still float ( have positive buoyancy force = will swimm)

This way you will have enough "sucking power" to suck
up all the water through V1 through the small pipe ( also helped via the external 1 bar air pressure
of the environment)
and push-press down the water beneath it.

@All,
the wite space surely can be air inside the cylinder as
long as no more air will come into the system after several cycles, the system
will work im my humble opinion and will pump water infinitely.

Regards, Stefan.


Hi Stefan,
are you willing to spend some of the "overunity prize" in order to build it?
This is just my humble question if you are so confident with it.
The concept does not seem to be too hard to build by a professional craftsman.
.... At least as an imperfect proof of concept.

My contribution offer is to deliver professional blueprints and 3D drawings if it helps.
But as lazy as i am, i dont want to calculate dimensions.
So please put some numbers on it.

 8)

regards,
sushi



Offline tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2009, 07:25:28 PM »
@tbird

I'see what you mean. but diameter of input pipe maters.

If pipe is smaller in diameter then it holds less weight of water per meter of altitude(height). Bigger pipe in diameter holds larger weight of water per meter of height. isn't it so ?

So in order to lift water column to 1m height you would need less energy (m*g*h) to do so if pipe is smaller in diameter cause weight of this 1m column of water is smaller. can we agree here ?


Wiz

hi wiz,

you are right.  you don't have to have a disk 10 times the area (give or take) of the tube size. as long as the weight was just heavier than the water and not spread over a larger area, that's all you would have to have.  it would be like a rope over a pulley.  if more is on one side, it will fall off on the side the rope was longer.  gravity.

 but if you do have a disk 10 times the size, you will need 10 times the weight.   from here you could add more tubes of any size (as long as you didn't exceed the area of the disk and were the same length) without adding more weight.  what you effect is the flow rate in the pick up tubes.

the benefit of the bigger disk is more volume in shorter distance.

now we start to chase our tail.  this bigger disk now weights more, so it will require more water displacement to float.  see where i'm going?  i think you said now you understand what displacement really means.  very good!!

you caught me off guard with the 100w statement, so i won't address it until i get a better handle on your meaning.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2009, 07:25:28 PM »
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Online broli

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2009, 07:37:41 PM »
Hi Stefan,
are you willing to spend some of the "overunity prize" in order to build it?

The competition has rules. It's indeed too bad stuff like this doesn't get sponsored by non profit organizations or something. The amount of free minds on here is astounding, give them the right tools and equipment and they will make amazing things.

Offline tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2009, 08:01:44 PM »
Third

Siphon, no

 Mechanical suction yes[upside down bicycle pump]

If the big weight displaces more than the pick up tube

The weight will not stay up,and will suck [not siphon] water from the tank below

Chet

hi chet,

i can see where one may not think they are the same.  one thing different in your example is the tire pump uses air (gas) and the syphon is used with liquid.

to help farther, using a liquid suction pump, how high can you suck water before the pump doesn't work and why?  answer, about 10 meters.  after that the tension on the water is too great and it breaks, so to speak.  some have said the pressure decreases to the point it boils.  either way you end up with cavitation.

now if we put our syphon hose in a bucket with water level at 2 feet and start the syphon to a bucket on the ground, no problem.  but if we extend the loop from the bucket's edge to 10+ meters, what happens?  that's right, it stops due to this same cavitation.

so no matter if you call it suction or syphon, the effect is the same.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2009, 08:01:44 PM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2009, 08:02:12 PM »
@tbird

displacement...
1dm3 (that is weight of 1kg of water (in air))

100dm3 is 100Kg of water
100dm3 is 1130 Kg of Lead
100dm3 is 0.1293Kg of air

100dm3 is Volume of displacement. it is same , but we should more concentrate on density of material. every material or combination of them that has lower density
then factor 1 (water at 4 deg.) will go to surface of water cause it weighs less then same ammount of displaced water. If material's density factor is higher then 1 then
that object goes to bottom gravity prevails over boyancy (this never happens in infinity pump.)

Air in combination with lead inside container gives us wide range of factors that can be used 0.001293 to 1  (say 1 - 1000) to make our MP heavier then air And lighter than water And MP overall heavier(weight in air) then complete weight of water in input pipe...to make enough preassure to start suction...

Wiz

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2009, 08:18:11 PM »
@tbird

I'see what you mean. but diameter of input pipe maters.

If pipe is smaller in diameter then it holds less weight of water per meter of altitude(height). Bigger pipe in diameter holds larger weight of water per meter of height. isn't it so ?

So in order to lift water column to 1m height you would need less energy (m*g*h) to do so if pipe is smaller in diameter cause weight of this 1m column of water is smaller. can we agree here ?

If this is not so then with say 100W of input energy you would be able to lift infinite weight of water at 1m height. and here we have a type of nonworkable overunity.

By the way.

Calculus and mathematics is nothing more then attempt of describing laws of physics,
Sometimes it is more egzact and sometimes just like artist painter tries to capture natures beauty - it is never that beautifull.
Physics is first.
After that proper mathematics (with right brushes and pallete colours) should be applied to describe what was obviously seen.
False Mathematics can allso be used to overpaint someones sight and to blind one and convince that what really is - isn't. hope you are not doing it.

Wiz

What you are saying is incorrect.

In a hydraulic or hydrostatic system the only thing that matters is PRESSURE.

The pressure of a water column is determined by the column height. Therefore the pressure at the bottom of a pipe with a diameter of 1 meter is exactly the same as the pressure at the bottom on a pipe with a diameter of 1 centimeter.

The weight of the larger diameter water column is much higher, but it is spread over a larger area.

You should read up on hydrostatic paradox, that will tell you why your device cannot work.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2009, 08:18:11 PM »
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Offline tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2009, 08:19:03 PM »
@tbird

displacement...
1dm3 (that is weight of 1kg of water (in air))

100dm3 is 100Kg of water
100dm3 is 1130 Kg of Lead
100dm3 is 0.1293Kg of air

100dm3 is Volume of displacement. it is same , but we should more concentrate on density of material. every material or combination of them that has lower density
then factor 1 (water at 4 deg.) will go to surface of water cause it weighs less then same ammount of displaced water. If material's density factor is higher then 1 then
that object goes to bottom gravity prevails over boyancy (this never happens in infinity pump.)

Air in combination with lead inside container gives us wide range of factors that can be used 0.001293 to 1  (say 1 - 1000) to make our MP heavier then air And lighter than water And MP overall heavier(weight in air) then complete weight of water in input pipe...to make enough preassure to start suction...

Wiz

i think i understand what your post is saying.  if i am right, to know how much air/lead you need for the transfer from supply water, we need to know how high the pickup tube is (from water level).  this gives us head pressure to overcome.

as long as you are at it, what are the other sizes, cylinder height and disk surface area?

tom

ps   don't you mean cm3 instead of dm3?

Offline tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2009, 08:46:19 PM »

hi stefan,

your comment

"This way you will have enough "sucking power" to suck
up all the water through V1 through the small pipe ( also helped via the external 1 bar air pressure
of the environment and push-press down the water beneath it."

is not all true.  the air pressure you refer to is on both sides of the water via "swimmer" (in your words).  if it were not, your swimmer would be in water and swim.

tom

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2009, 08:46:19 PM »
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Offline tsl

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2009, 08:53:45 PM »
@tbird

It seems to me that you're the only one that have paid some attention in physics class.

@Stefan

cmon man, you're a engineer, have you forgot all about hydraulics??

Offline tbird

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2009, 09:00:54 PM »
@tbird

It seems to me that you're the only one that have paid some attention in physics class.

@Stefan

cmon man, you're a engineer, have you forgot all about hydraulics??

thank you for saying so, but i never had the class.  i did have some training (40+ years ago) in the air force.

awhile back stefan and i had a bit of a disagreement, but it was me on the wrong side then.  stefan do you remember E.L.S.A.?  i'm still sorry for the comments i made then.

tom

Online broli

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2009, 09:02:34 PM »
Did you ignorant people perhaps forget how these hydraulics formulation came to exist? That's right...EXPERIMENTATION. I'm even 100% sure that almost anyone who thinks this doesn't work because their physics books tell them so has never made an experiment based on hydraulics. But that's alright noone expects you to do so, sit there in your comfy couch until the world passes by and you stay behind like a little lamb. Ofcourse you also have people that don't care about right ot wrong but have their own debunk-everything-that-gets-posted agenda going on.

Like I said before, this thread doesn't not to have go on anymore. The concept is lead out, experiment should follow.

Offline tsl

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2009, 09:16:37 PM »
Did you ignorant people perhaps forget how these hydraulics formulation came to exist? That's right...EXPERIMENTATION. I'm even 100% sure that almost anyone who thinks this doesn't work because their physics books tell them so has never made an experiment based on hydraulics. But that's alright noone expects you to do so, sit there in your comfy couch until the world passes by and you stay behind like a little lamb. Ofcourse you also have people that don't care about right ot wrong but have their own debunk-everything-that-gets-posted agenda going on.

Like I said before, this thread doesn't not to have go on anymore. The concept is lead out, experiment should follow.
It would be much wiser to think that some others may really be in the area they are talking about ....

 

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