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Author Topic: Knitel's InfinityPump  (Read 91409 times)

Offline Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #285 on: April 08, 2009, 04:29:50 AM »
Learning something new is never a loss. I need to do some experiments... :-*

Joel

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #285 on: April 08, 2009, 04:29:50 AM »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #286 on: April 08, 2009, 06:24:34 AM »
That one I agree with. Experiment by all means, you will only gain new insights. That is a win in itself.

Good luck

Hans von Lieven

Offline itanimuLLi

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #287 on: April 08, 2009, 09:39:02 PM »
How about this solution
see the drawing
firsttime start up all system is filled with water. all valves are closed
stage 1
valve2 is open very shortly to remove the air under the weight  valve 3still closed, after that valve 1 opens, weight gos down sucking in water

stage 2
Valve2 +valve3 is open valve 1 closed the weight is at the bottom air flows under the weight.

stage3
Valve1+ valve2 + valve3 are closed weight weight floats to stage1

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #287 on: April 08, 2009, 09:39:02 PM »
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Offline Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #288 on: April 08, 2009, 10:40:00 PM »
That might be a solution! Difficult part would be to maintain a seal around the top where vertical pipe goes through the top of the tube. We could make that a flexible hose permanently sealed to the top of the main tank. ;D

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #289 on: April 08, 2009, 11:39:03 PM »
This won't work either and pretty much for the same reason.

Have a look at my paper on hydrostatics and syphons the physics is all in there.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6836.0;attach=31031

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #289 on: April 08, 2009, 11:39:03 PM »
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Offline itanimuLLi

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #290 on: April 08, 2009, 11:42:31 PM »
Here is the animation link it was to big for the thread.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=item258

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #291 on: April 09, 2009, 12:21:27 AM »
Yes you can get this thing to work in animation. In the real world you cannot.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #291 on: April 09, 2009, 12:21:27 AM »
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Offline Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #292 on: April 09, 2009, 04:46:07 PM »
Hi Hans,

Excellent paper on siphons. Good read, low enough on technical details for a tinker like me to understand without coming off as rude to the reader. I do have a couple of points I'd like to mention though. In the 'Other misconceptions', Figure 2 section, I think you meant to say 'most PM designs' rather than 'must PM designs'. For a paper like this, a quick grammar check can help pick off the correctly spelled wrong words.

The second issue is one of omission. You glossed over how a siphon is started. Typically, this is done by creating a vacuum in the line that is greater than the forces pulling the water down to its natural level. I don't know if the hydrostatic differential plays a big part in this or if its just overcoming gravity, but I think its important for the following reasons.

First, Every aquarist occasionally needs to cleanup an overly dirty tank. anaerobic bacterial action can create large amounts of methane that becomes trapped under the gravel. When siphoning up the muck, these methane (gas) bubbles are caught in the line. So long as the bubbles aren't so long that they violate the integrity of the hydrostatic pressure at the bottom of the siphon, the process will pass them along without a problem. I've wondered whether the atmospheric pressure of the bubbles is lower than or equal to the outside air. My Assumption is that it is lower. The bubbles are in a state of partial vacuum because they are being 'pulled' along by the stable water column below them in the system.

Also, While the Egyptians, and I, both used our mouths to initiate the vacuum required to start our siphons, there are several commercially available 'starters' for people that are unwilling to take a short suck on their fish tank. Various squeeze bottles and such are designed to aid in pumping enough water through the line to start the siphon process. Quite often, these pumps result in a trapped bubble within the siphon that in no way causes the siphon process to become unstable.

I think these are important to the designs we're discussing here because they illustrate what happens at intermediate stages of the pump designs. A piston, Knitel's MP, is essentially the same as the bubbles in the line but with a weight displacement heavier than water rather than lighter and it is possible for a downward piston to siphon even with some air trapped at the top of the chamber so long as it is a hydrostatically sealed environment on the downward stroke.

I've attached an image with two siphons which will also function perfectly. They illustrate the principles that I'm talking about.

PS. I'd really like to read your paper on Buoyancy.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #293 on: April 11, 2009, 12:23:54 AM »
A vacuum is not required to start a syphon. Admittedly it is one way of doing it, but all that needs to be done is to insure the siphon tube contains no air. Simply filling the siphon tube with liquid, closing off both ends, immersing one end in the tank and holding the other end below the level of liquid in the tank, then opening up the tube will start it.

As to my paper on density, I wrote this in German for another forum and have yet to translate it. When this thread here suddenly stopped I did not do it because there seemed to be no interest.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #293 on: April 11, 2009, 12:23:54 AM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #294 on: June 10, 2009, 12:58:58 AM »
Great paper on hydraulics and hydrostatics hansoliven!

Siphoning has interested me quite a bit recently, and of course I have tried out the things that dont work.
However I think i know how to make it work, by using gravity....
Wanna know more?

Nab

Offline Nabo00o

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #295 on: June 10, 2009, 03:53:39 PM »
K, you haven't responded so I might just as well tell you.

In my opinion siphoning works purely by the force of gravity, combined with the suction moving liquid creates.

In many ways it can be thought on as a hydraulic counterpart to two weights connected by a string, hanging on a pulley (there is a name for this but I can't remember it now). If one is heavier than the other it will pull the other one up, however it is not so easy to do this with liquid, because any solid it rests on (as you described in your paper) will absorb its gravity induced weight.

However if you used something resembling a capillary structure, or less complex, several pipes connected together at one side, leading up and then into the the one suction pipe, you would have more weight hanging in the air on one side than on the other, and thus more weight.

The problem you show us in the first of the last three examples is that air will enter and ruin the process, however, this doesn't mean that the weight of water at that moment before chaos interrupts wouldn't have sucked with a much larger force.


If it can work, the key seems to be that you must have a larger volume of water at one side than on the other, combined with two things: That 1; there is no solid surface which the water can rest on (like a huge tank with a small hole in it), and 2; that the bottom water surface cannot collapse and so allow air to enter.

All of these problems can be solved by using one pipe as the intake, and connecting it to several other output pipes, which be only adding one more would double the mass, and also double the height it is limited to.

At least until tested we shouldn't just disproof this as a simple impossibility.....
If it could work, it would at least be damn simple to make.

Naboo

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #295 on: June 10, 2009, 03:53:39 PM »
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Offline Nabo00o

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #296 on: July 19, 2009, 02:31:04 PM »
Hi all. I just wanted to say that Knitel's Infinity-Pump most certainly works!
The only stage of concern is when it floats back up. If you allow a large enough air pocket to be stored in order to make up for the force of the weight then it should be able to repeat every time.
I can't think of anything that could justifiably remove the correct title of this machine!

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #297 on: October 29, 2009, 12:42:06 PM »
EVERYONE,

what if you have a vertical SMOT that lifts a weight underwater? then the water is drained and the weight falls do to gravity while refilling the water tank.

objects underwater are lighter than outside the water no?

Offline Russell Lee

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #298 on: December 15, 2009, 06:40:14 PM »
 There may be some problems with this design functioning.  First, when the valve opens to allow the water to fill the area below the weight to cause it to rise, there is no mention of where the air that is bleeding out is going.  Assuming it is rising to the top of the cylinder would have the float not reach the top of the cylinder, but the top of the water level below the newly formed air pocket.
  Secondly, where is the extra air coming from that appears in the simulation on page 2 when the float is at the top of it's rise?  The air under the weight increases in volume, how?
  Thirdly, as the air is forming at the top, the water in the pipe will be draining down to the holding tank.
  It seems that after working (if it even does) only several times, the air above the weight will be greater in vacuum flex that the ability of the vacuum produced by the weight to draw any water up the pipe.
  There was a design on the net over the last 10 years called the Heavy Float Pump Generator (Designs for the World Project gave it to the world), but it is no longer on the net.  That design avoided the problems this one has.  Not sure if it can be found on the net any more or not-haven't looked for it.
-Russ
Okay, I edited the GIF animation and made the animation slower
and included Igor´s name with it.

Here it is:

Offline czimborbryan

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #299 on: January 18, 2010, 03:51:44 AM »
From what I can tell, all that you are trying to do with this pump is nearly the same thing that already happens with water running through a dam to generate electricity.  It fills up during the night and water flows out during the day making electricity.

The design needs a way for the weight to lose boyancy and then regain it (ie - air).  I do not see how this can also pump water and air at the same time.

 

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