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Author Topic: Knitel's InfinityPump  (Read 130360 times)

Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #255 on: April 04, 2009, 07:39:40 AM »
Hi Guys,

I think I see a way to make the original design work. Whats missing is an exhaust cycle at the top of the stroke. When V3 opens, air will escape to the top of the cylinder. V3 can then be closed and can force the water out of v2 and in through v1, when mp hits bottom, the air under it will be refilled, but there is now a bubble at the top. If we add a V4 that releases this air at the top of the stroke, and move the v1 valve down a little bit we can have a repeatable cycle. As a matter of fact, if V4 can be fed back into V2 somehow, V1 and V2 can be connected to each other in a closed loop. Wouldn't this work? :o

PS, yeah, I think I'm going to try to build one.

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #256 on: April 04, 2009, 03:39:11 PM »
Hi Guys,

I think I see a way to make the original design work. Whats missing is an exhaust cycle at the top of the stroke. When V3 opens, air will escape to the top of the cylinder. V3 can then be closed and can force the water out of v2 and in through v1, when mp hits bottom, the air under it will be refilled, but there is now a bubble at the top. If we add a V4 that releases this air at the top of the stroke, and move the v1 valve down a little bit we can have a repeatable cycle. As a matter of fact, if V4 can be fed back into V2 somehow, V1 and V2 can be connected to each other in a closed loop. Wouldn't this work? :o

PS, yeah, I think I'm going to try to build one.

Knowone really prooved that it couldn't work, bur there are some pressures that are developing and are tough to handle - at least , although this animation and the hole idea looks simply doable, actuall real world design is complex for majority of us that do not have easy access to real industry and technology (cad/cam machines especially) so we could use it's potentials
to quicly and easily build prototypes. this is not just case with this one - many other prooven free energy and overunity processes are hard to replicate in garage conditions,
although very simple and understandable.......on the other hand global industry is in dead end without us - we can only expect they develop "new" design of cars with "new" motors in them.
(and they are doing it over and over again - like some short circuited robot)
I suggest you to find or develop some simpler to build concept...btw. energy surplus of infinity pump that might be developed is not very high unless build as a huge tank in a back yeard.

Wiz
(If someone is interested i can tell anyone what other and prooven free energy devices are - and very worthwile to build and use on everydays basis)

Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #257 on: April 04, 2009, 04:48:23 PM »
The most difficult part of a build like this would be the valves. I think V4 could be a simple ball valve. V2 & V3 need to be some kind of spring loaded rocker valves and they need to be keyed to each other so when one opens, the other is closed. If they were attached to each other via a flexible cable (like a bicycle brake cabled) and were spring loaded, then the natural action of the piston up and down could trip them to change state. I'm still not sure if V1 needs to be valve at all. When the piston rises up to the V1 level, it could effectively shut off V1 without any additional hardware. I'm also thinking the fluid needs to be something more viscous than water. Something like a light weight oil won't have as much of a leaking problem around the piston without adding friction.

Anyone know where to find small little valves that might work for this, or at least suggest keywords so I could google more effectively?

Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #258 on: April 05, 2009, 06:49:01 AM »
I had an idea that I think will make this one work more efficiently, Here is an expanded view of the mp piston. I've drawn two valves, V3a opens to allow air to escape up into the top of the cylindar, V3B is a valve attached to a tube running through the middle of the piston. It can allow water to escape from above down below without letting the trapped air escape. This might also be replaced by an extra tube and valve on the side of the main pump body. Not sure which would be easier to do.

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #259 on: April 05, 2009, 03:43:14 PM »
you should continue to build on following animation
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6836.msg158565#msg158565
that has flat or conus-down bottom of cylinder and complete air is pumped out
so air is not a problem for now and there is no need to add valves.

here is proposal on how to seal floater-swimmer and be able to control pressure needs and friction
using inflateable rubber...

the only thing here that needs to be experimentaly prooved is that floater with its weight can suck water IN from input pipe and that in same time has LTW (lighter then water) properties. but HTA (heavier then air).
If you succeedd in pumping water up with floaters weight and it can float on water then you have prooved the concept.
sounds as contradiction at first but objects that in same time is HTA and LTW is possible, and allready used.

Wiz

Igor Knitel
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 08:51:44 PM by wizkycho »

Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #260 on: April 05, 2009, 06:27:38 PM »
Hi Guys,

Here is some more on my ideas for this pump. I moved the V3B valve out into a separate pipe. The top end is parallel to the V1 valve and line but is separate from it. This allows the water to flow from the top to the bottom while the piston is rising without compromising the integrity of the air bubble under the piston. When the piston rises above the V1 & V3B lines, the valve at V4 opens to let the air from the previous cycle exhaust out. Once the piston rises to the top of the stroke, V4 closes and V3 opens to let the trapped bubble escape. V3 then closes V1 opens and the weight of the piston forces the water down drawing more water in from the reservoir. At the bottom, the piston fills with air again, V2 closes and V3B opens, the piston can rise back up to the top until it again forces the air from the last cycle out through V4. Cycle complete.

PS. I'm not a professional in either physics or hydraulics, but I have had a lot of experience with aquariums over the years and I think I understand syphons pretty good. I've drawn a measurement (A &B) on the pic below. This represents the pressure differential that needs to be overcome by the difference in buoyancy of the piston. Its not the whole length of the riser tube, its only the difference between the intake and the outlet.

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #261 on: April 05, 2009, 09:00:40 PM »
onevoice... wolud be nice if you could make complete animation, although I understand how it should work - animation could help to find obstacles.

the animation I ment one should build on is (wrong link before)
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6836.msg158565#msg158565

onevoice
This is when looking it again very inovative approach now floater has better chance to still be bouyant, if it must be heavy for pump up action in the first place, cause it has
now additional air bubble. this is very very close to be understandeable concept - and overcome(overweight) pressure from hidrostatic paradox and still be able to make floater
LTW lighter then water.

can you please make an animation
this is fantastic contribution, if someone could make another such finess change, this pump would be way stronger so paradox can not stop it.

Wiz

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #262 on: April 05, 2009, 09:21:09 PM »
onevoice

if V3B opens when floater-swimmer is at the bottom - how is water pumped up ?

Wiz

hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #263 on: April 05, 2009, 11:01:38 PM »
@ onevoice,

The trouble with your design is the top valve that supposedly lets the trapped air out. The only way to expel the air is to fill the void with  water. How can a void that sits above the syphon be filled with water?

Hans von Lieven

Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #264 on: April 06, 2009, 04:42:26 AM »
Hi Igor,

Thanks for the link(s). Will study them after my kids go to be tonight. Would watch out for the inflatable seal because its size will vary with depth. Leak at the bottom and too tight at the top. Lots of questions, will try to answer:

Igor: I'd love to make an animation, but I'm not technical in physics. I don't think the key is so much to make the float between density of air at STP vs water so much as it is to be able to alter the displacement of the piston. To make it as heavy as possible at the top and to make it as light as possible at the bottom while using less energy then can be gained by the potential energy of the water movement. Any suggestion for simple animation s/w I can learn on...PS Must be cheap or free too!

Quote
if V3B opens when floater-swimmer is at the bottom - how is water pumped up ?
A: When the piston goes down, it should be dragging the water in through the intake so the space above it is already full. Yup, I agree, the'res going to need to be some small space so the water can come in under the piston through the V3B pipe.

Quote
The trouble with your design is the top valve that supposedly lets the trapped air out. The only way to expel the air is to fill the void with  water. How can a void that sits above the syphon be filled with water?
Hans, there are two things that 'could' fill the void. One is water, the other is the mass of piston itself. Think of it like an internal combustion engine. On each downstroke, air enters the system below the piston. The added buoyancy drives the piston up but it must also release the trapped air from the last cycle as an exhaust out the top. Once the exhaust has been cleared, the top valve closes and the V3 valve opens in the piston, releasing a new cycle of trapped air. Knitel has a great idea here, I'm just working out details. Here, a new pic. Notice the outlet at V2 can be slightly higher than the top of the lower outlet at V3B. So long as the V3B valve is closed, air can't get into the tube and water can't get out

One other thing that's good about the top air exhaust is that any small air leaks in the system will naturally rise to the top and get purged from the system.

Onevoice

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #265 on: April 06, 2009, 08:03:23 AM »
Hi Wiz,

Thanks for the hint to look at the animation on page 10, I had seen it before, but was bleary eyed and dismissed it at the time. Upon looking back again, I also saw a fatal flaw in the pic I posted. Your pic has some problems too. First, you show the weight going up in the water, implying that it is less dense but it also shows the weight going down with a bubble of trapped air underneath of it. it can't go both ways unless there's a blackbox changing its density. The second problem is one of basic mechanics, the trapped air is right along the gasket while the weight is going down. That is going to be the point of maximum leakage. Even if everything else goes right, its still going to get enough air trapped in the top over time to stall the pump.

Here's a new pic. I've decoupled the outlet and intake at V2. The outlet now only needs a backflow valve to stop air getting in during the downstroke and the real V2 valve is only used to let air in at the bottom of the stroke. I also added some stops at the bottom so that the piston never gets down so low that it blocks the bypass tube, V3B, and both of the V2 valves are raised up a little so that the bottom of the V3B line never gets air trapped in it and is never cut off. Thanks again Hans for pointing that out.

A suggestion about gaskets, tire pumps use a flange of leather or rubber to keep their seal. Its usually in a cone shape flared outward so that the internal air pressure compresses it closer to the cylinder body keeping a tighter fit. Applied here, the piston needs to be more dense than water to force a downward action. That's the compression stroke. It may seem counterintuitive, but that's the way the gasket has to seal for this to work. It can leak like a sieve going up, but it must keep a tight seal on the way down.

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #266 on: April 06, 2009, 09:53:29 AM »
Hi Wiz,

Thanks for the hint to look at the animation on page 10, I had seen it before, but was bleary eyed and dismissed it at the time. Upon looking back again, I also saw a fatal flaw in the pic I posted. Your pic has some problems too. First, you show the weight going up in the water, implying that it is less dense but it also shows the weight going down with a bubble of trapped air underneath of it. it can't go both ways unless there's a blackbox changing its density.

please look again (animation (page 10))
this is not trapped-contained air - water comes out through v2 and air is replacing it, since floater is now heavier then air ("suspended" in air) it must go down - none of the air stays when floater reaches bottom (if built properly and smooth surfaces). in other words by changing media (air-water) under the floater - floater becomes HTA and LTW. Floater in this animation
is able to go both ways. although is a question if it can pump the water up due to paradox. this is the only questionable part here.no mistake here in animation.

Quote
The second problem is one of basic mechanics, the trapped air is right along the gasket while the weight is going down. That is going to be the point of maximum leakage. Even if everything else goes right, its still going to get enough air trapped in the top over time to stall the pump.
if we are looking at a same animation (page 10)
no trapped air here - when pressure below due floaters weight rises, floater stops - then water goes out (at v2) lowering pressure and/or (depending on how fast water comes out) air comes in-replacing water lowering pressure again for floaters weight to go down, at the bottom all of the air and water below is pressed out by floaters weight.
If V2 is big enough pressure of air-water below is not as high to penetrate sealing.

no errors here - only yet undetermined ammount of pressure above floater comming from pump up action paradox.

Wiz

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #267 on: April 06, 2009, 10:25:40 AM »
onevoice

althogh animation could help (microsoft Paint for drawing frames - and then Gif Animator that transferes it into animated gif) - it is not supper quick method.

I now completely understand how this works, in KIP there is change of media (air-water) below the floater, now you introduced changing media within floater itself
so overall there is now much wider range in which this can operate.

one thing - you can allow air to go in where water goes out (at gen) and you do not need V2 then. then V3B must be at bottom
if you do this (allow air to go in) you will have less pressure from below - and therefore effectively heavier floater.

air will not accumulate, it is same if you let it go in immidiately or using V2 after.

well done

Wiz




hansvonlieven

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #268 on: April 06, 2009, 11:06:38 AM »
You guys don't learn, do you ?   ??? ??? ???

Hans von Lieven

wizkycho

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Re: Knitel's InfinityPump
« Reply #269 on: April 06, 2009, 11:15:04 AM »
You guys don't learn, do you ?   ??? ??? ???

Hans von Lieven

...I mentioned paradox enough times - haven't I

Wiz