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Author Topic: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION  (Read 2194953 times)

Offline wattsup

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8025 on: October 18, 2017, 10:44:30 PM »
@tinman

Thanks a heep but listen man, I do not want you to dirty your hands on my account. I can take care of myself but I do appreciate your input, your works and your devotion.

The problem is the discussion should have stayed on topic without personal attacks that are not worth any rebuttal on my part. All I talked about was the patent, then all of a sudden it just got shifted into redneck alley. Not good for anyone. What the hell. Is there only one way to see a Tesla Patent?

@Magluvin

Well good to see some @members do not mind pushing their grey matter above the nose line. I will try to answer after each quote. But let's take it slowly, step by step.

I just explained the mech rectification in my last post.
 

I cannot picture that at all. Don't forget that inductors "discharge" when disconnected but the inductor is always connected. Capacitors discharge when connected but the capacitor is always connected as well. The object of the patent is not to discharge anything. The working primary and secondary wind relations are already set up for a high step up so a discharge on the primary is not required, only a change in polarity is required. The high voltage for ozone production is already in the winds of the working primary and secondary. So the object of the patent is two fold. Produce as much complete change in polarity in the primary. In these cases usually the primary is a one layer wind of not that many turns but if you can change the polarity across the total length of that primary from positive to negative, then more of that primary length that changes polarity, the change hence the more impress is conveyed to the secondary for step up. The second object of the patent is to maintain steady air flow across the high voltage secondary arc that will push the produced ozone out of the system at a steady rate, not too fast to dilute the gas and not to slow to be overly concentrated. These are two only requirements for this patent to be useful. Produce ozone and make it exit the device at a measured flow rate to produce a given ozone concentration or dosage level.

Quote
The inductance of the motor is a large inductance. Just as simply explained in the Tesla Igniter pat. The igniter pat shows how to charge the cap to a high potential using very little input current.

OK, if you had a TV flyback transformer that has a 10 turn primary and a 1000 turn secondary, do you need to discharge a capacitor into the primary? No. The step up is already set-up in the wind ratios. If the same transformer only had a 50 turn secondary and you wanted high voltage, then you would want to discharge a capacitor but that capacitor would need a diode to hold the charge you wish to discharge.

In the Ozone patent, the capacitor is in series directly to the positive rail of the source so any increase in voltage above the source voltage would leak back into the source and not be available for any discharge. The capacitor is not discharging anything. It is simply being used as an expansion point so potential can change in the complete length of the primary. Or consider it a way of using the capacitor as a second coil that provides simple throughput for any matching potential which will be made evident further down.

So first, do you agree that you need two potentials to charge a capacitor? If yes, then from where does the capacitor get its negative potential to then charge, hold a charge and then discharge? hahaha 

Quote
The large inductor is large enough that the timing of the points in the engine (in his illustration is just the switch at a particular position of the piston) when the engine is running, that the cap is at a much higher potential by the time the points switch connects.

This is a little confusing. Engine, piston, engine is running, seems to not follow the patent.

Quote
Lets say that the large inductor has completed charging the cap via field collapse.

There is no "field collapse" because the inductance is always connected.

Quote
Sure the cap with a larger potential could possibly reverse its way back to the lower potential input if the switching did not occur fast enough or not at all. But field collapse currents of an inductor happen way faster than the time it takes for charging up the 'Large' inductor. So even when the engine is at its lower rpm or sluggish start, the cap should still hold a much higher potential than the input before discharging.

Hmmmm. Hard to explain. The relationship between a high inductance coil and a capacitor will not produce high voltage in the capacitor. It will only fill up the capacitor to higher uF ratings faster, but not at more voltage. If you want to fill up a capacitor of high UF, you take a high inductance coil is series and your capacitor will fill up much faster because the potential from either side will want to reach the circuit center point which is somewhere in the inductor so the capacitor is seen a mild inconvenience, whereas when you connect the battery to the capacitor both ends advance and have equal footing in the capacitor and fight in the center. That's what slows things down. More on that further down.

Oh boy, lots to cover maybe more then I can in a few paragraphs. So let's start with the same question. Do you agree that the motor inductor needs two polarities to rotate? So we know the motor inductor is getting a constant negative potential but how is it getting the positive potential? Then do you agree that the motor inductor is not reversing in polarity since the motor would then turn in the other direction? So it is always getting the same polarities. Agree? For the motor fan to be useful it has to run at a steady rate. Right or wrong? I have worked with large ozone generators and the air flow has to be steady, measured and constant.

Seems like you guys never talk about circuits in the two polarities but only as being a circuit with electrons traveling in one direction so you never can consider each polarity because for you guys, both polarities create only one effect, electron flow in one direction that is supposed to be constant and equal throughout the circuit. That is where the Tesla patent shines above the rest in its simplicity to show that no, each polarity has its own conveyance direction more like two forces meeting like when you play with a slinky toy.

So like mentioned before, the Tesla Patent does not require a capacitor to discharge.

Quote
When the cap is discharged into the very low turn, low impedance, low resistance, low inductance of a step up transformer primary, it is now putting the large inductor directly across the input source of which gets the currents flowing in the large inductor so when the discharge switch is opened, the large inductor dumps its field collapse currents into the cap, and repeat.

OK, so now you are talking about the actual rotary switch and relation with the fan motor as in the form of high inductance. But again here we do not need to discharge a cap because the primary/secondary relations are already set by their wind numbers. Look all the primary wants to see is polarity change and here Teslas' simple solution does not discharge a capacitor.

If you are to talk about coil inductance as a source of "field collapse" don't forget that this is not a coil but a DC motor with the sole load of having to turn a small fan and a rotary switch. So we can say there is no load so the rotor of the motor will be turning with little input in comparison of like when a dc motor is run fully loaded then released. So the fan motor should not be a source of high field collapse required to charge a series to source connected capacitor that then needs to discharge that supposed charge on the working primary to then push a  higher then normal ozone producing high voltage off the secondary. Do you get the picture of how we can see this in many ways. We do tend to over-dramatize when we say things like field collapse that for me is no longer a possible phenomenon. Thinking that a field will leave the confines of an object and when the current is broken the field then collapsed back into the object like a well trained Jeanie is simply illogical and not required.

I remember I had talked about this many months ago and even then @Erf castrated me without haste and reserve so I am not surprised of his attack on me in the manner he did. No problem.

Quote
Id say instead of trying to make a simulation or an animation of the circuit, try and build the circuit. It may never show you what the real thing is actually doing. And if the sim/anim draws you to a conclusion that the thing will not work for OU purposes, then i have to argue and differ with that conclusion as I could not find that conclusive.  Forget the fan, forget the motor and make it simpler with just a controlled switch and replace the motor part of the circuit with a large inductor. Maybe use a motor for the switching, but its windings would need to be of a large inductance, value, where a lot of them today may not work for this. So use a speed controllable motor to do the switching but have a large inductance in place of that portion of the circuit. Or try a dozen other ways to do the switching and no motor at all.  Could build a high inductance motor with the armature windings and stator windings in series and make it as original as possible.  That part is probably what veers people away from it as that would be most of the lot of work in the project and may consider it too difficult.
Mags

Let me think about this one. I am not going to do anything right now simply because my work load to prepare SC is just all encompassing right now.

OK,  so let me ask you. Do you need both polarities across the primary when the capacitor discharges? So how then is the capacitor discharging across the working primary? The capacitor spends all its time on the positive rail of source. So how is it discharging a positive and negative to the primary?

It all then boils down to how you perceive what a polarity is. We want change across the Primary. When the rotary switch is open the positive conveys through the capacitor, then the right side of the primary and exits the left side of the primary to then land on the fan motor to provide a first dc+ to the fan motor. The rotary switch then closes so now the positive hits the fan motor directly while it hits the left side of the primary and passes it to land in the capacitor.

So what just happened? Well if all we wanted is change in the primary, then you just got that change but not in a positive/negative way. Tesla used the positive to rebias the working primary from one side, then from the other side while he uses the capacitor as a virtual source of negative that gets rebaised. The fact that the primary is between an inductor on the left and a capacitor on the right both are acting as landing points for the positive polarity as it completely passes the primary one way, then the other way. Tesla just solved Half Coil Syndrome by pulsing the primary with a positive from one side, then the other side so basically, the primary is being run for free while he spends a little energy on the non-loaded fan motor and while any possible momentary increase in voltage in the capacitor from the second positive reclaim of the primary is fed back to the source. It is still fantastic from either perspective.

One basic change many can try in their mindset as a easy way of stepping out of the box. Some say the DC battery makes electrons travel from positive to negative and some say it's negative to positive. So imagine. It's like saying this one way road can be driven in both directions. And all seem fine with that. So maybe try to modify this one notion whichever you espouse for just 30 days, to this. Both polarities convey into the circuit from both ends up to the center of the circuit which, for most systems, is at the center or around center of a good inductor. So now, nobody can be wrong. Try it, connect a coil directly onto the leads of your battery. High chance it will blow in the center. Why? Because when two opposing forces converge, things usual blow up at the point of convergence. The frontline, the blotch. Then think about this. All measurements you ever made on your circuits could be explained by both polarities advancing into the circuit. You just always looked at it in another mono-directional way but funny we only have positive diodes so of course you can only see in one direction because your are concentrating more on where the diodes block the positive. So the directionality is coming more from the use of the diode then from the natural bi construct of electricity. Tesla did not use diodes so when he says potential, he rarely identifies them as positive and negative because most of his circuits are balanced, symmetrical, except in the Ozone Patent he decided to  play a new game. Spend for fan motor but freely pulse the primary.

This could all be confirmed on a bench by driving a small fan motor with, then without, the ozone production and rotary switch. It could be a fan motor, one flyback transformer,  one capacitor, then the fan and rotary method. If adding the later does not increase consumption or very slightly, then you know what he was trying to do. That would be an epic bench work worth the time.

@Erf

Regardless of what you say to me, if you ever want an outside look into your ideas, let me know. Try to loosen up man. Life is too short.

@all

If you have questions,  please think them through yourself first then ask me a better question. i figured out that this 30 day thing is the easiest way to start, even without looking into SC, if used will start a process in your mind and gradually create a new space in your mind that will act like a referee while you work through your own comparatives. Then all of a sudden something will click and you will never work the same way again.

When you pulse the negative on a coil, you are letting the negative convey to the coil because the positive is already in the coil from the already connected other coil terminal. When you pulse the positive on a coil, you are letting the positive convey to the coil because the negative is already in the coil from the already connected other coil terminal. So you only saw half of the true action till now. Ain't that great, there's way more to discover.

A battery of 12 volts. If electricity flowed from one to the other polarity, why does a short circuit break in the center? Why are both wire points of contact at the battery terminal cooler then the center of the wire? I did a video on that many years ago.

All the best.

wattsup


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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8025 on: October 18, 2017, 10:44:30 PM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8026 on: October 18, 2017, 11:29:04 PM »
This is the simplest version. The igniter pat diagram below.

Notice the dc source is in series with the large inductance and the capacitor, they are always connected.

When circuit D is closed, it connects the primary F of the spark coil across the cap, F being a very low ohm, low inductance coil, then becomes like a closed switch across the capacitor, in turn causing currents to build in the large inductor. When D opens, the large inductor now unloads its field collapse into the cap of a higher voltage than the dc source. The next time circuit D is closed, that caps charge is dumped into the spark primary. With the time allotted for D to be closed, the cap and primary ring down in resonance most likely giving a longer spark life than just one quick high voltage jump. Sort of an MSD effect. When D is opened again, the cap is probably fully discharged and will take on the next field collapse from the large inductor once more.

Back when I did some experiments on this I found that putting a diode from the left side of the source E to the bottom lead of the large inductor  H so the inductor could dump its charge into the cap without having the battery source in series with the inductive discharge as I could see that it would pull from the battery also while the large inductor charged the cap if the diode were not there.

But lets look at it a bit differently....

Lets say the cap and coil were allowed enough time when D is open to charge the cap to peak and then like a good LC should, reverse direction until the cap is charged to peak in the opposite polarity and then discharged. Well then we have sent some back to the battery during the cap charging cycle and we still have a cap charged to a high voltage for discharge in the primary.

I have been wanting to put this back on the bench for some time. i have most everything I need to set it up and try some new things I have thought of over the years and this conversation inspires me to do so.

Lets see what I come up with

Mags

Offline wattsup

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8027 on: October 19, 2017, 11:59:16 PM »
@Magluvin

Wow, I got your PM's with @MH and deleted them. Not interested in has been blabber.

If anything sunk in from my previous post, then this Igniter Patent holds the same rules.

First off, look at the positive side of that battery. Where is it going? Yes to a high inductance coil (HIC) and the battery positive will never pass the half way mark of that coil. The negative will pass the cap in a flash and enter the HIC from the other end. This means what? Tesla is using only the negative to produce a negative rebias to the primary when the switch is open and a negative impulse in the other direction through the primary when the switch is closed. That's how the primary change occurs because again, all you want is change over the primary.

Again the primary/secondary winds are already set up for a high voltage step up so you do not really need a capacitor to discharge. In this setup the capacitor is acting more like a resistor because the tension on the other side of the capacitor going to the other side of the HIC is lower then the negative tension that turns left before the capacitor and heads straight for the switch. When the switch closes, that negative line will shoot through the primary and head right into the HIC from that negative side.

So again a masterpiece because Tesla is doing this only with the negative side of the battery. The positive is just sitting there in the first half of the HIC creating the landing point where the negative higher tension that bypasses the capacitor then going to the switch wants to land and fight against the positive still waiting in the HIC and if they had their way, they would blow that HIC up. The fight is not in the primary. It is at the center most point of the circuit that is usually in an HIC.

Now, Tesla describes this as he can, at the time and based on his vision of electricity but when you read that patent it is full of inconsistencies that no one would notice if all kept the same perspective. 

So if anyone disagrees, including @MH, without insults, then tell me what happens to the positive after it enters the HIC?

I could write much more but will let it at that for now.

wattsup


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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8027 on: October 19, 2017, 11:59:16 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8028 on: October 20, 2017, 12:30:53 AM »
@Magluvin

Wow, I got your PM's with @MH and deleted them. Not interested in has been blabber.

If anything sunk in from my previous post, then this Igniter Patent holds the same rules.

First off, look at the positive side of that battery. Where is it going? Yes to a high inductance coil (HIC) and the battery positive will never pass the half way mark of that coil. The negative will pass the cap in a flash and enter the HIC from the other end. This means what? Tesla is using only the negative to produce a negative rebias to the primary when the switch is open and a negative impulse in the other direction through the primary when the switch is closed. That's how the primary change occurs because again, all you want is change over the primary.

Again the primary/secondary winds are already set up for a high voltage step up so you do not really need a capacitor to discharge. In this setup the capacitor is acting more like a resistor because the tension on the other side of the capacitor going to the other side of the HIC is lower then the negative tension that turns left before the capacitor and heads straight for the switch. When the switch closes, that negative line will shoot through the primary and head right into the HIC from that negative side.

So again a masterpiece because Tesla is doing this only with the negative side of the battery. The positive is just sitting there in the first half of the HIC creating the landing point where the negative higher tension that bypasses the capacitor then going to the switch wants to land and fight against the positive still waiting in the HIC and if they had their way, they would blow that HIC up. The fight is not in the primary. It is at the center most point of the circuit that is usually in an HIC.

Now, Tesla describes this as he can, at the time and based on his vision of electricity but when you read that patent it is full of inconsistencies that no one would notice if all kept the same perspective. 

So if anyone disagrees, including @MH, without insults, then tell me what happens to the positive after it enters the HIC?

I could write much more but will let it at that for now.

wattsup

Yeah sorry about the pms.  I didnt make the multi person pm list, MH did.  I only replied to him a couple times there and I know that he wants that fight to continue, so he has something to do with himself. ;) He does this once every month or 2 to get his nickers wet.  Everything is all nice and quiet and he does this and makes a list of the recipients to bother with his same rants he used many times before to do the same. I dont start these things with him. He just pops up and does it when he feels the need. Nuff said

As you had said earlier about making an animation or sim to try, well running the circuit on Circuit Sim works quite well in seeing what different large inductor, cap values and timing of the switch(I run it about 10%duty and adjust from there if needed) can do.  I just ran it last night for giggles and I was able to do as I had said of the possible ways.  If the switching is quick enough, then the large inductor never really stops flowing current in the same direction. If the switch timing is made longer in timing between switchings, it can get to a point where the large inductor and cap basically have a cycle of resonance before the switch closes again, where the cap is charged higher than the input voltage, then the cap reverses the inductor currents back to the battery, charging direction, and when the cap is at peak negative voltage of the resonant cycle, the switch closes, cap dumps into the primary and the cycle repeats. Simulated it many many times in many many variations. Im very familiar with how that circuit works.  One of my vids used this circuit to drive a pulse motor, AND I was able to use the large inductor placed at a particular point around the rotor to use its field to help drive the motor faster than without it there. That was a 2 for 1 deal that worked out well for me.

Im not sure I understand your description of what you think is happening in that circuit. Maybe you can simplify or describe it in detailed chronological order from one switching to the next.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8029 on: October 20, 2017, 12:34:14 AM »
Again rereading your description, I dont follow your separation of the battery into 2 entities of a pos and neg as if the battery in between is not a part of the circuit and the pos and neg are not in sync in the circuit.  Just dont get it

Mags

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8029 on: October 20, 2017, 12:34:14 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8030 on: October 20, 2017, 01:21:48 AM »
Yeah sorry about the pms.  I didnt make the multi person pm list, MH did.  I only replied to him a couple times there and I know that he wants that fight to continue, so he has something to do with himself. ;) He does this once every month or 2 to get his nickers wet.  Everything is all nice and quiet and he does this and makes a list of the recipients to bother with his same rants he used many times before to do the same. I dont start these things with him. He just pops up and does it when he feels the need. Nuff said


Mags

When I had gotten the pm from MH, I didnt even read through the whole thing and just assumed he was aiming at me with it and i made a bad call on my reply back at him that was not called for in the least. Didnt get it till just some min ago that the first pm wasnt aimed at me. So what I aslo said above was not called for either. My mistake. I apologize for all that.   ;)

mags

Offline wattsup

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8031 on: October 20, 2017, 05:37:20 AM »
@Magluvin

Forget @MH.

OK, think of the battery as a judge in a boxing match. All the two boxers want to do is get to the ring and fight it out with each other. The ring in all our circuits is the center point of highest inductance.

If the HIC was the only thing connected to the battery, the ring would be HIC dead center with both boxers fighting it out until the ring cannot hold and boom, you just blew an HIC. Bay boy. hahaha

Now put the capacitor on the negative boxers side. Now he has to pass that to get to the ring at the center of the HIC while all the positive boxer has to do is wait for him there and while he does that he passes the halfway mark just a little. So the fight will be slightly more on the negative boxers half of the HIC. The more you add things that the negative boxer has to pass before it gets to the HIC ring, the more the fight will occur on that side of the HIC.

So, if you measured the inductance of the HIC, you take half that and the positive boxer advances halfway into the HIC to that point. Then you measure the inductance of the negative circuit and take that divided by the inductance of half the HIC as a percent and that (or near that) is how much off center the fight will occur on the negative side. If you added more stuff on the positive side as well, the HIC center will go slightly back towards the positive side.

I sure as hell hope some catch this because it ain't in the books..

Ok, is a battery a balanced or imbalanced energy source? It's balanced with a positive potential and a negative potential. Why do we call them potentials? How can a battery negative be a potential when all it does is let's the positive flow back into it? Such farfelutin ideas of electron travel are the reason you have to believe in battery directionality. Again, Tesla had no diodes. He did not even have that in his mind to think about or be constricted by. He just used both polarities.

I know we all have learned otherwise but that otherwise is wrongo man. Our EE explanations are only formula based without any real logic for the OUer. Sorry for ranting.

OK, so the boxers know that whenever the fight starts they have to get to the center point of the HIC. What we do is use only half the motion because we only see things going one way. It does not. 

So add more on the negative side that's switched in and out of the circuit and the strongest line of that potential will still want to go the the HIC ring and fight it out. Tesla uses this polarity eagerness to his advantage. This eagerness is due to the copper atom nucleus' ability to convey potential by nucleic mimicking via the Six S's. Stay, Show, Sway, Swing, Spin and Shoot. That is explained in the docs I mentioned on a previous post.

Example B: Now, let's say the HIC is only connected to the positive boxer and nothing else. Ahhh. Now that boxer passes the HIC and gets to the other end right to the tip of that wire yelling to the negative boxer "Hey you chicken or what? Come on let's get this fight going". The negative wire hates being called chicken. He grabs on the wire and starts fighting the positive pushing it all the way back into the center of the HIC. That's why an already connected boxer has an advantage since it claims all of the HIC first so the switched boxer always has to fight its way to the HIC center ring by reclaiming its half of the HIC. That will always happen when one side is already connected. That is the crunch of Half Coil Syndrome.

We basically took the bi-force of a battery and only used one force. Then we diode the hell out of it and all that's left for the negative is to be considered a potential dumping ground.

Maybe read my previous post again.

OK, now replace the boxer that moves in the wire with a zillion boxer nuclei, one inside each copper atom of the wires or conductors. So in example B, imagine all the atoms on that big fat negative battery terminal are ready to fight and you approach the positive boxers who have all conveyed through the HIC to the tip of that connection wire that will touch that negative terminal. Now you have millions of positive boxers yelling to the negative boxers "Are you all chicken or what? Come on let's get this fight going". You guessed it. The negative boxers hate being called chicken so they connect and they start conveying and pushing back and conveying more and pushing and conveying more and pushing back the positive boxers to the HIC center ring where if left to their own devises, will fight till the ruining end. 

Could post more if you want. There is so much more. You guys think we know it all. We know nothing more then following stringent construct rules full of holes.

So now let's go through the Ignitor patent.

Two boxing clans, we know them as the infamous N's and P's. The P conveys to the center of the HIC and just waits bored to the hilt. The N conveys to this tee, then left to an open switch and also straight up to a multi-parallel dielectric conductor where it conveys through it then another tee, then left conveying to the primary of the ignitor coil then to the other side of the open switch, it also turns right towards what it really wants and that is to fight it out in the HIC center ring. But right now only those N's after the capacitor who received a conveyance are battling it out in the HIC and not at the center because the N is now lacking in boxers. So the primary sees one conveyance of the N potential after the capacitor that stopped at the open switch. Since that switch is open, the majority of the N boxers are waiting impatiently to advance their conveyance from their side so for now they cannot get to the HIC in full force like the P's did on the outset, so the primary is only N bias conveyed from left to right.

Now the switch is closed, the main N clan on the right can now convey first against the N's that were biasing the primary from the switch side going to the tee where some main boxers will convey down into the capacitor from the top while the majority start the real fight now at or near the HIC center.

So this means what? It means the N or the P can convey to a primary from either side and create change in the primary. You can soft bias a coil or hard bias a coil from either side and with either polarity.

So in this patent Tesla used positive as a stable focal point held at the ring of the HIC. Then he controlled the negative to change directions through the primary as they headed to the same focal point for the fight. In the ozone patent he used the negative side as the focal point and switched the positive but in a slightly different manner as explained previously.

So the switch? If the switch is fast enough to turn off just when the main N conveyance passes the primary, it will do its full effect for Primary change while not hitting the HIC full tilt to overly tire out the boxers. That would be where the control should look.

Anyone doing this should consider an HIC with a center tap for scoping.

Also, you will find that all measurements you do will follow this logic. The same efficiency test could be done with only the cap and HIC running then with the ignitor portion added. Do not use anything inline with the circuit as amperage measurements. Use a clamp on ammeter to follow the number of boxers as they convey further in the lines.

Hope this is more understandable.

wattsup


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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8031 on: October 20, 2017, 05:37:20 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8032 on: October 20, 2017, 06:49:36 AM »
Hey Watts

What is HIC?  I may be slow here,

Are you saying that the large inductor will not have much activity due to only so much current can go through the cap in one direction? if that is the case then we are missing something...

Lets say we are going to cut the grass with our igniter circuit on the mowers gas engine. And at the moment the engine is at rest and it just so happens that the points are closed and that points switch connects the primary across the cap. It will remain in that condition till we pull the rope tied around the flywheel. Now we connect the battery as shown, At this time the cap is not part of the circuit as far as the battery is concerned because the points are closed and the primary of the transformer is now electrically across the cap. So now the large inductor is basically across the battery, and the primary in series with the loop is of little effect to the large inductor taking on currents from the battery. The transformer primary across the cap at this time allows current from the battery to flow in the large inductor as freely as the large inductor allows, and it is building its field till it is max and max current is flowing in the large inductor. Now we pull the rope and the points now open, disconnecting the primary from across the cap and now the cap IS in the loop of the battery/large inductor. The inductor is all wound up and will collapse its field and charge the cap, yes through the battery as a discharging function in the battery. In the end the cap will be charged up to a higher voltage than the battery. And hopefully the points are ready to close again while the cap is still charged at this high voltage and discharge it across the primary. During the time the cap is across the primary, oscillating as an lc, the primary can also carry the dc component of the battery through the large inductor at the same time the primary and cap sing thus building the field in the large inductor once more and repeat.

If you would like I can set up the circuit on sim and present the code for you to see exactly what I just said.  The whole idea IS to get that high voltage charge in the cap for primary discharge and oscillate till the ringing dies down. Should be quick and high freq due to the very low inductance of the primary and possibly the spark load helping to kill the ring faster than no load.

The battery will accept and pass the currents of the large inductor to charge the cap to a higher voltage than the battery.

In a points ignition system there is a condenser across the points. That condenser is not just there to protect the points switch contacts. The condenser becomes part of an LC with the primary of the spark coil.  If you have a coil laying around, try applying just 12v + and - of a battery across the coils + and - input. Then disconnect for the field collapse to induce the HV in the secondary for spark production. You will only see a short distance spark possibly lees than a1/4in and about as harmless as a quartz sparker in some cigarette lighters instead of flint and wheel. Just 1 single weak pip spark.  Now do the same with the condenser across where the switch opens. Now your spark will be way more intense and longer lasting due to the LC oscillation.

Now when we look at the points with condenser circuit closely, the oscillation of the LC cap and primary, has the cars battery in the loop. If the cap is across the closed switch, the same switch that connects and disconnects the - side of the coil to gnd, we can trace the currents all the way through the battery as part of the loop.  The battery + is always on the + side of the coil input and the points only connect and disconnect the - side of the coil to ground.

Its a strange arrangement through the battery, but is works fine. Today with electronic ignition advances i dont believe this action goes through the battery any longer.  The noise in the cars electrical system would be a hazard to the plethora of computers and electronic devices of todays vehicles.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8033 on: October 20, 2017, 06:55:35 AM »
Also, I look at circuits as electron flow from the - of the battery/source, through the circuit/load and back to the + of the battery. Maybe you are going by another idea of how things work. Seems like you see + charges going one way in a circuit while neg charges flow in the opposite direction simultaneously.  I think, from reading your posts here.  Is that the case?

Mags

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8033 on: October 20, 2017, 06:55:35 AM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8034 on: October 20, 2017, 02:36:42 PM »
@Magluvin

In my Reply #8215 I mention it - high inductance coil (HIC).

Look, take a 12vdc battery and two wires of three feet long. Put one wire end on each of the battery terminals leaving the two other ends open. Put your volt meter on those two open ends. What do you see? If the positive of the meter is on the positive of the battery, you will see +12vdc. If the positive of the meter is on the negative of the battery you will see -12vdc. So whatever information was at the battery terminals is now at the end of each of those wires. Both the positive and the negative potential of the battery had to advance into the wires for your meter to read that. Both potentials advance in the circuit. I covered that a few posts ago.

Now connect the two wires together. Where do you think the wires will blow, at the ends or in the center where they meet? Well 9 times out of ten they will blow in the center. So why should it blow in the center if the battery is supposed to work from as you say negative to positive and as others say positive to negative? What is so different about the current flow as you say before it arrives at the wire center, at the wire center and after it leaves the wire center? There is no difference because this is impossible? If the electricity in the battery was flowing in a circle back to source, then the wire should always blow at the point where the current goes back into the battery but it does not. That is because both polarities exit the battery.

OK another example. A 12 volts battery has 6 x 2 volts cells. Right or wrong? Right. Each cell has a P and an N side. Right or wrong. Right. So if each cell has both N and P how is it that when you put six together, you get this 12 volt N and P reading? What? Do they add up and how is that possible that they add up if when you go through each of those 6 cells together. No way that can be possible. The battery cell has an N and a P because it is finite and needs to delimit itself. But that one cell can also be either full N or P so when you put two cells together, one is N and one is P and when you read across you still see the polarities and 4 volts. Put three cells together and 1 1/2 will be N and 1 1/2 cell will be P. Put six cells together and you now have  3 N and 3 P. You measure the voltage on the battery and see 12 volts and think one terminal is zero and the other terminal is 12 volts, but you forget that the volt meter only measures potential difference, just like if you put 5 x 12vdc batteries in series and measured between the 3rd and 4th, you will again see 12vdc even though your meter probes are at the 36 and 48 volts marks you will still see 12 volts. The same with the battery, half of those cells are now completely N and the other half are now completely P so in reality the voltage is -6 vdc to +6 vdc and your meter sees it as 12. You have a -6 leaving the N and a plus 6 leaving the P and heading for the bulb with an additive force of 12 vdc.

Look even if both polarities exit the battery and even though our present science thinks one polarity exits to then enters back into the battery from the other polarity, this does not change the truth of the battery exiting both polarities and it does not change how we have gone about exploiting only one facet of the battery. Tesla used both polarities in his patents advancing into the circuit.

You have a dc bulb on a battery. In your view then how is it that the negative can enter the bulb, glow like a star creating this quasi fusion state in that filament, then redress itself to enter the output of the bulb to then return safe and sound to the battery source? That is impossible in any other natural state of things. As soon as the bulb was so hot and bright it should have lost all information from the negative and had nothing left to return to the positive side of the battery, so THERE CANNOT BE A FLOW OF ANYTHING. But we are taught to see an illusion while the reality and logic is glowing right in front of us. Would it not be more logical to say that the bulb received both a positive and a negative potential, advancing into the filament and lighting it up. This in reality is the only logical answer. But we see it in one direction.

I'll have to digest the rest of your post but most of those answers are in my last few posts. Look this is a new concept for you guys were I have had years now to prepare it and believe me, there is no room for error in it because it explains all our effects to perfection without any exceptions and inconsistencies. This requires that you re-read and re-read and all of a sudden something will click. Basically the electron and the field are imposters. They are the source of all our misconceptions about electricity and how it works in a natural way, the way that will lead to OU. If our first scientists and physicists were ordered to provide only half the truth of electricity because they knew that if we knew the truth, we would start developing new ways to pulse our coils like Tesla wanted to do with Wardencliff, then teaching us only half the truth was their way to keep us mentally chained up. We still advanced or increased our complexity but we still pay for the losses and this loss is very profitable for some. You just have to wake up and get ready for the changes that will occur when the first OU device hits the market, it will change our present constructs so just get ready because for some it will be one hell of a shock to learn we have spent all our lives on this monolithic view of energy.

wattsup

 

Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8035 on: October 20, 2017, 03:34:11 PM »
@Magluvin

In my Reply #8215 I mention it - high inductance coil (HIC).

Look, take a 12vdc battery and two wires of three feet long. Put one wire end on each of the battery terminals leaving the two other ends open. Put your volt meter on those two open ends. What do you see? If the positive of the meter is on the positive of the battery, you will see +12vdc. If the positive of the meter is on the negative of the battery you will see -12vdc. So whatever information was at the battery terminals is now at the end of each of those wires. Both the positive and the negative potential of the battery had to advance into the wires for your meter to read that. Both potentials advance in the circuit. I covered that a few posts ago.

Now connect the two wires together. Where do you think the wires will blow, at the ends or in the center where they meet? Well 9 times out of ten they will blow in the center. So why should it blow in the center if the battery is supposed to work from as you say negative to positive and as others say positive to negative? What is so different about the current flow as you say before it arrives at the wire center, at the wire center and after it leaves the wire center? There is no difference because this is impossible? If the electricity in the battery was flowing in a circle back to source, then the wire should always blow at the point where the current goes back into the battery but it does not. That is because both polarities exit the battery.



Im late for work so i can only make a short reply and will address the rest later.

HIC  ok  I just quote tesla from the patent as large inductance when I talk about the pat.

On the where does the wire blow and why, I cant say I agree with you on that. If we light an incandescent bulb using a variable say dc input and we crank it down till the wire is just a low glow, the middle of the filament is most always brighter than the parts of the filament ends. For the most part it is because the larger posts on each end of the filament conduct a lot of heat away from those ends of the filament. What your conveying is if we broke open a heating element from an oven and removed the coils of filament and string it up, it would be pretty darn long is we stretched out the springy filament,that when we apply the input, there will be more heat from the middle area of the length due to an electrical cause? I would say that the middle would be between the 2 lengths of the ends, and the middle could be hotter than the rest due to being in an area that has just as much heat to the left and the right of the middle. And the ends would only have half of that local ambient heat around them. We could lay it out in a straight line on the shop floor and then add another perpendicular to the first one and they cross in the middle. Then we could take 2 more and cross in the middle of the first 2, one at 315geg and the other crossing at 45deg. So it looks like a big 8 pointed star of 4 heater coils all crossing in the middle.
And then we fire them all up. Apply more power till they blow.
.
1  Where would it blow and why?
2  If it blows in the middle, why is it so hard to believe that it is where the most heat is combined in 1 area because the heat of the whole surrounds the middle more than on the ends?

Having the 4 filaments crossing is a firmer example of what is happening in just 1 wire or filament as you described it. With 4 crossing we have magnified my point of view to be more relevant. There will be more heat in the middle crossing than what can be measured toward the ends of the wires or filaments. But the same will apply with just 1 length of wire just in a lesser amount, yet it still is accountable to to the same reasoning.  Now this wire better be darn near perfectly made.  If there is one imperfection in a portion of the wire that is off of center, then that area will heat more due to the resistance of that imperfection and it should blow there instead of the middle. The weakest point is what it is. Weak.

I have to disagree with you that it blows in the middle because of electrical properties that you describe.

Mags

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8035 on: October 20, 2017, 03:34:11 PM »
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Offline forest

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8036 on: October 20, 2017, 09:12:32 PM »
That interesting discussion is ....nothing. The only real Energy amplification is what Tito said to us.  :P
I don't believe it could "cure the world" if you knew it. Even Tesla was sure: it's only  a peanut.Sure, can fulfill needs of ordinary house but it's not possible to scale up , at least not easily.... Look how big was Kapanadze 100kW installation.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8037 on: October 20, 2017, 11:09:45 PM »
I am going to pretend that Wattsup isn't here....nothing he has presented thus far will get you anywhere.... don't take my word for it, ask him to demonstrate his understanding of the patent...  I can not only demonstrate the patent as presented, I can demonstrate it as it was meant to be, I already have....while you were sleeping.... 


I can appreciate the benefit of exchanging with one of so many words, and will stand on the sideline and watch the discussion which takes place between the two of you lead to nowhere....  I will interject my two cent when I feel it necessary. 

 
 

So that its clear....I do not agree with this.....

 
 
UH....WTF?!?


When the switch closes, it, the switch, places the motor across the supply, simultaneously, it places the cap across the primary....  focus..... we are looking at two circuits during the instance of switch closure, the motor and supply representing one circuit, and the cap and primary representing the other, the switch (controller) being common to both.


The motor and primary become a "functioning series circuit" when the switch opens, when the now empty capacitor is allowed to complete the circuit to the supply through the series connected primary and motor. 


I have tried to paint the significance of this picture time and time again, but am constantly opposed by those whom I am positive have yet to truly immerse, and lose themselves (literally) within this subject.


When the switch opens allowing the cap to charge to the supply potential, the current, manifesting out of opposition to change in voltage, moves through the serial connected motor and primary, causing the motor to rotate, and exciting the primary.  The fact that both motor and primary are excited during the cap charging cycle is overlooked by all!  Another overlooked aspect, the cap charging current is not motivated entirely by the supply potential, it is motivated by the induced potential generated by the collapsing field of the coil. This "mixing" of energies, (for lack of a more descriptive way of formulating it)  how and when it is to be accomplished, and through which circuit(s) it is to propagate through is one of the primary lessons taught by this patent. 


I hope you read this and it clicks...I hope you read this and realize how mistaken you are in thinking that you can perform the tasks which need to be performed without the motor....


Regards


Hmm. I have to go back and look.  I thought your conversation the other day with (I have to go back and see) was that yes we could replace the motor with an inductor and pull off the switching another way. If I was wrong then I was wrong..  have to git for a couple hours and Ill go back and see what I misread or misunderstood.

Also Ill have to closely reread your post here in comparison to what I had posted in which your reply here was to.  I think we are in the same ballpark. I believe I did say there are 2 separate circuits in the same way you just explained but I cant do this at the moment.  And If I dont have it right and the motor motoring is beneficial to the whole, can you explain why as compared to using a large inductor in place of the motor and just doing the switching with some other mechanism/circuit?

Mags

Offline citfta

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8038 on: October 20, 2017, 11:31:18 PM »
Hi Mags,

I'll try to take a guess at your last question as to why a motor is different from a large inductor.  Erfinder can correct me if I am wrong.  If you disconnect power from a DC motor while it is still spinning what does it become?

Carroll

Offline Jeg

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Re: ENERGY AMPLIFICATION
« Reply #8039 on: October 21, 2017, 12:28:51 AM »
In the same spirit i would say that motor has a comutator. When switch opens, motor coils provide multiple "currents with great electromotive force." Inductor alone will give only one.

 

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