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Author Topic: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?  (Read 7534 times)

Offline mikestocks2006

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Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« on: February 05, 2009, 06:22:53 PM »
Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) the key?

Few days back I’ve posted some comments on another thread re: how to measure magnetic viscosity/lag, or in few more words, the time it takes for a magnetic front wave to get transmitted through a magnetically conductive material.

Researching the net for Magnetic Viscosity this came up among others and the following graph may be of  interest:

http://steornpower.googlepages.com/steorn1.jpg/steorn1-full.jpg.


From this link
Dated back to June of 2007
Part of
http://www.steorn.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=58375

It appears to indicate a measured lag of around 130 microsecs?

A setup for getting  passed the proverbial  sticky point using e.g. 0.5 inch (pole face dimension) set of mags, would be as follows:
you bring them together very fast, inside the 130 microsecs window and then the full repulsion kicks in and forces them apart. By the time the repulsion kicks in, the mags are on top of each other. About 320 fps should do it. If the setup employs neo mags on a disk 6 in dia, a rotational speed of 13krpm may do the trick? Interaction would be between mag on the disk perimeter vs a stationary etc. Both in repulsion.  Or antigear wise (counter rotating disks/mags for 1/2 the speed per each. With better viscosities (longer times) a slower speed would be needed?
The idea is to have a high enough -relative- speed between the two mags so on approach the integral of the repelling force over the distance traveled to the center (sticky) point, is less that that of the departing one.
At these speeds, high efficiency low friction bearing would help

Next for solid state, a driving coil that gets pulsed with a short enough duration, that by the time the magnetic front reaches the collection coil on the other side of the rod, (or transformer) the input to the pulse is off on the driving coil. However, the collection coil will see a rise and a fall of flux resulting in a voltage and a current if there is load put on it, but since the driving coil is off the power source by that time, there is no time for any BEMF to load/counteract the driving coil.!
This may best work out with a DC pulse, and ofc we’ll be getting a DC out. ( I wonder if the TPU works like this)
As an example:
Primary Pulse dc ON for 150 microseconds, pulse OFF for  10 or even 100 times that ( would even give a 60Hz based period. Etc.

Thanks
Mike

Ps: is this stuff patentable? It has been in public domain for quite some time. Can these principles and  designs be licensed?

Other post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6593.msg154652;topicseen#msg154652
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 08:56:55 PM by hartiberlin »

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Offline Kator01

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2009, 12:27:42 PM »
Hi mikestocks2006,

I like to thank you very much for bringing this up. It certainly is a missing link to the subject of Lenz-Delay and Thanes
coil-setup. If this graph is real than we have a new approach and can act accordingly

I was responding to skywatcher123 in the Peripiteia-Thread and reasoned the possibility of a magnetic wave ( the longitudinal spread of permeability ) along the core-length which is reflected at the far end of the and thus reversing the polarity of the magnetic elements. ( Analogous to the reflection of an electric impuls at the far end of
an open coax-line )


http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4047.4190

Reply #4196

Regards

Kator01

Offline BEP

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 12:47:39 PM »
Glad to see others see this. The lag can be so pronounced as to cause a reversal of rotation (lagging so much it appears to lead).

Also be aware the same lag occurs in mechanical non-magnetic systems where acceleration is the only force. Talk to someone that balances rotating machinery. It is fairly difficult to balance anything that is variable speed because the lag from mass and acceleration varies with the speed.

Of course, the book thumpers will soon chime in. No matter, I still must balance this type of machinery and I'll use what works.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 12:47:39 PM »
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Offline CRANKYpants

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 01:22:59 PM »
Hi mikestocks2006,

I like to thank you very much for bringing this up. It certainly is a missing link to the subject of Lenz-Delay and Thanes
coil-setup. If this graph is real than we have a new approach and can act accordingly

I was responding to skywatcher123 in the Peripiteia-Thread and reasoned the possibility of a magnetic wave ( the longitudinal spread of permeability ) along the core-length which is reflected at the far end of the and thus reversing the polarity of the magnetic elements. ( Analogous to the reflection of an electric impuls at the far end of
an open coax-line )

Regards

Kator01

This is exactly what we are doing at Ottawa University with our coils' self induced capacitance - our Lenz induced magnetic field is delayed by 90 degrees and repells the "charging" magnet at the exact instant said magnet is beginning to move away from the coil.

The delayed magnetic field does four things simulataneously:

1) Repells already receeding rotor magnet with additional force,
2) Attracts next approaching opposite pole rotor magnet
3) The delayed magnetic flux is "collected" and fed into out High Current Coil Cores increasing our output power by more than x10 to date.
4) The High Current "in phase" flux is also collected and redirected away from the rotor magnet (thus reducing armature reaction) and fed into the High Voltage Coil Core increasing and enhancing the HV Coil acceleration effects as well.

Cheers
Thane

Offline ChileanOne

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 01:31:00 PM »
Simple!!!!!

LOL
LOL
LOL
LOL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 01:31:00 PM »
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Offline ChileanOne

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 01:33:44 PM »
Boys, you are a tad little behind.

From http://www.steorn.com/orbo/technology/

How Orbo Works

Orbo is based upon time variant magnetic interactions, i.e. magnetic interactions whose efficiency varies as a function of transaction timeframes.

It is this variation of energy exchanged as a function of transaction time frame that lies at the heart of Orbo technology, and its ability to contravene the principle of the conservation of energy. Why? Conservation of energy requires that the total energy exchanged using interactions are invariant in time. This principle of time invariance is enshrined in Noether’s Theorem.

The time variant nature of Orbo interactions can be engineered using two basic techniques. The first technique utilizes a method of controlling the response time of magnetic materials to make them time variant. This is achieved by controlling the MH position of materials during permanent magnetic interactions.

The second technique decouples the Counter Electromotive Force (CEMF) from torque for electromagnet interactions. This decoupling of CEMF allows time variant magnetic interactions in electromagnetic systems.

Orbo 1.0, the first commercial release of our platform technology, is based upon our electromagnetic implementation. Orbo 1.0 will be made available initially under license to 300 engineering companies and to the wider product development community later during the course of 2009.

Offline BEP

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 01:56:36 PM »
Wow!

Steorn invented power factor and real vs. apparent power? I suppose soon every household will have two Orbos in every pot. I'll make my pot ready!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 01:56:36 PM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 05:06:07 PM »
Lenz law states that the voltage in the coil will be such that the resulting coil current will create a magnetic field that opposes the original magnetic field change.  Now how to delay the coil current.   Make the coil with alot of inertia in it.   Lots and lots of electrons to get moving before any current flows.  Lots of inertia to overcome before the current flows.   But once it flows it will flow for a longer period of time.  Until the electron inertia is altered by the load.  So say we have an input winding and the current is choked and all the energy goes into magnetic density changes in the core.  The output winding experiences the same magnetic core density change but is of high inertial value and the current is delayed while the electrons are taking their sweet ass time accelerating.   Finally the current flows in the secondary but the input voltage has already been switched.   The current flows in the secondary and desaturates the core out of phase with the primary input.  The amps are choked or impeded in the primary winding but not the voltage drop effect on the core.  The only current flowing is in the secondary which desaturates the core.
   If two output windings are used and they are put slightly out of phase.  A highfrequency high voltage pulse of many orders of energy greater than the input pulse are attainable.
   Electrons are very very light so this is not going to happen at a low frequency unless you go with huge amounts of mass.  Attention to which way a free electron has it's inertia invested in plus external electric, magnetic, and gravitational fields all come into play.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 05:35:43 PM by sparks »

Offline BEP

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 08:00:28 PM »
Sparks

In your Lenz law statement just make that coil a single layer flat spiral. The generated mag field is 90 out instead of 180.

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 08:00:28 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 09:44:39 PM »
Magnetic viscosity is half the key. The other half is a change in *effective* permeability, which can be accomplished by solid-state or mechanical means. I've been documenting this online since early 2005, way before Steorn announced anything to do with "free energy."

Here's last weeks big news update in my research:
http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?topic=285.0

Regards,
PL

Offline konduct

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 10:02:15 PM »
Boys, you are a tad little behind.

From http://www.steorn.com/orbo/technology/

How Orbo Works

Orbo is based upon time variant magnetic interactions, i.e. magnetic interactions whose efficiency varies as a function of transaction timeframes.

It is this variation of energy exchanged as a function of transaction time frame that lies at the heart of Orbo technology, and its ability to contravene the principle of the conservation of energy. Why? Conservation of energy requires that the total energy exchanged using interactions are invariant in time. This principle of time invariance is enshrined in Noether’s Theorem.

The time variant nature of Orbo interactions can be engineered using two basic techniques. The first technique utilizes a method of controlling the response time of magnetic materials to make them time variant. This is achieved by controlling the MH position of materials during permanent magnetic interactions.

The second technique decouples the Counter Electromotive Force (CEMF) from torque for electromagnet interactions. This decoupling of CEMF allows time variant magnetic interactions in electromagnetic systems.

Orbo 1.0, the first commercial release of our platform technology, is based upon our electromagnetic implementation. Orbo 1.0 will be made available initially under license to 300 engineering companies and to the wider product development community later during the course of 2009.

That's just plain condescending. I would say Steorn is the late one...it's their tech and how late are they? Quit promoting these alcoholic wankers.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 10:02:15 PM »
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Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 10:42:22 PM »
Hi folks, thanks for the feedback. Yes a lot of this info has been out there for a long time.
Also, see Noether’s theorem etc.

Let’s see if it is realy simple.
Ok lets test the principle of operation for a solid state device, it maybe easier and simple to build vs a mechanical one that requires high rotational/translational speeds.

Solid state device. (for the shake of simplicity assume all heat/resistance losses, Eddie currents etc are accounted for or make the components perfect etc. With perfect components the most we expect to achieve is unity, 100% of what goes in comes out in the same form etc. Since it’s electrical device, than the best we’d expect to do is to get 100 of all the electric energy out.

First let’s establish the basics of what we know is happening.
A simple coil.
Air core.
We apply AC to the coil and no other load on it. AC 60Hz - 16.7 milliseconds (mS) period
Energy went from the source to electric to magnetic back to electric back to the source, no loss or gain.
If we pulse it once with one cycle sine wave, same results, all in all out no loss no gain.

Next lets do ½ sine wave, only rise and fall on the one side of the wave, let’s say 0 to 15 volts and back down from 15 to 0. This will result to a mag field from 0 to some value Mv then from Mv back down to 0
Again, nothing lost nothing gained.

Next, let's replace the air core with a ferromagnetic material, let’s say a standard transformer core (make it perfect as above)

Apply the pulse, no load anywhere.
Again, no loss no gain

Now make the core a U core, let’s annotate the 4 corners or the core as A,B,C,D

Our coil is at AB section of the core.
Pulse it as above.
Again, no loss no gain.

Next, place another coil, same as the one we have been using, to the CD section of the transformer.
Do not place any load on the CD coil

Now what we have is a simple U core transformer, Primary at AB section and secondary at CD section of the core.

Pulse the primary. (lets call this STEP ALPHA)
There is no load on the secondary.
No loss, no gain from the source, there is no output on the secondary (no load) so no net final energy transfer from the source to the secondary
And ofcourse, the best we’d expect at the secondary is a Voltage of 0 to 15 rise, followed by a fall from 15 to 0 volts, and last but not least no Current there. (no load)

So Far So Good?

Next, lets place simple load on the secondary, a small resistor. R

Now if we pulse the primary, some energy will be transferred to the resistor and dissipated as heat and ofc, due to the magnetic coupling with the secondary through the core, what ever is left over will be returned to the source. So now there was some energy transfer from the source, through the primary, through the core, through the secondary, onto the resistor and manifested as a Rcurrent and Rvoltage on that resistor.

Again so far so good, we are all in agreement?

All energies are accounted for, all are balanced, best we can do is 100% efficient energy transfer from the primary to the secondary. (in reality it is less, but a quick search, will show some expensive transformers operating in the 99% plus efficiency)
Again the most we can hope fore is 100% or Unity right?

Well here is were Magnetic Viscosity or also Magnetic Lag, comes into play.

The magnetic coupling between the primary and secondary is through a ferromagnetic material that has a certain amount of magnetic viscosity.
That viscosity is in the order of microseconds per unit length and per unit flux.
In our common device that operate in the 60Hz range (16.6 mS period) a quantity of few microseconds doesn’t enter the picture. Its effect is close to zero. BUT it is there.

So now lets say, the BC/DA sections of our nice little transformer above ar about 1 inch length.
And lets say helped graph on the first post, that (and this is generous) it takes 200 microseconds (uS) for the magnetic front to travel from point B to C

Now lets say, our pulse to the primary only lasts 150 microseconds (75 rise,75 fall)

By the time -200 microseconds later- the magnetic front wave reaches the secondary, our primary is OFF, the switch to the source is off. As far as the primary is concerned it’s like STEP ALPHA above. No loss no gain on the primary. The fields are back to zero, no magnetic coupling has had the chance to be completed to the secondary, the source has seen no load, and it is now off (at time 150 microseconds)
HOWEVER; the secondary after 200 microseconds, starts to experience a rise and fall due to the magnetic front going through the CD section, resulting in a Voltage and a current across that resistor and ofc loss of the magnetic field energy at section CD.

But none of this loss is getting back to the source through the primary, Remember, the primary is off by this time.
So we got some energy out on the secondary, without any loss on the primary.

Isn’t this simple?
Easy to test, a ferrite or iron U core transformer, a cope and a sig generator that can provide a very short on pulse and a long off delay per cycle.

Is the Conservation of Energy law preserved?
IMO yes for each leg of the transaction.
Yes on the primary electric field to magnetic to electric back to source.
Yes on the secondary, Magnetic to electric to heat dissipation on the resistor
The issue is during the magnetic coupling. The Magnetic wave front travel is not instant.

There is a time delay (temporal or time variant effect taking place)

Actually I think the energy does come from somewhere, I’ll possibly post some more thoughts on this sometime in the future, but all we care for now is that the primary sees no loss and the secondary, shows some output.

 Yes a lot of this info has been out there for a long time.
Also, see Noether’s theorem etc.
Again a side question, is this stuff patentable, can one license these designs and principles?

Thanks
Mike

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 02:59:36 AM »
A lot of people seem to be stuck on one type of magnetic viscosity. Magnetic viscosity is not limited to a wave traversing through the magnetic core. The entire core could be wrapped with a coil that's wound around the entire core, which would cause no waves through the core, yet there would still be magnetic viscosity.

Magnetic viscosity, simply put, is the materials inability to react instantly. That's it!  The ferromagnetic atoms do *not* flip instantly. This is even a misconception amongst a lot of 8-5er physicist who specialize in quantum physics. IBM and various companies know full well that it typically takes on the order of a few nanoseconds for each ferromagnetic atom to flip in ultra high speed magnetic cores. To be more precise, the ferromagnetic atoms precess as they flip. This is conventional knowledge in this field.

One method of causing magnetic viscosity is microscopic eddy currents that retard the magnetic avalanches. A magnetic avalanche has been described as a fire that spreads within the core, but quickly dies out. There could be millions of ferromagnetic atoms that flip per magnetic avalanche, which is nothing in terms of the entire core. As the applied field (could be from a coil) increases at a linear rate, there are thousands of magnetic avalanches occurring with the core. This is heard with sensitive equipment as pops.

My research has show there's bad and good magnetic viscosity in terms of "free energy."  The type we want is magnetic viscosity that's *caused* by a *microscopic* effect such as microscopic eddy currents, *not* macroscopic eddy currents. The microscopic eddy currents in a laminated core retards magnetic avalanches, but it offers no appreciable retardation to changing external magnetic fields. A laminated iron core is an example of good magnetic viscosity. Although, there's an optimized lamination thickness. To thin, and it hinders the microscopic eddy currents. To thick, and it pushes out an appreciable amount of changing external magnetic fields.

I'm putting together a new website dedicated to my magnetic research, which now contains numerical mathematical analysis using conventional physics that clearly shows over 200% efficiency. The "free energy" comes from ambient thermal energy, which always exists in all matter. -->

http://globalfreeenergy.info

2009 *will* be the year of global free energy, period!

PL
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 03:25:18 AM by PaulLowrance »

Offline mikestocks2006

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Re: Can it be this simple? Magnetic Viscosity (lag) is the key?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2010, 05:48:17 AM »
Sure, why not?
Where would the energy come from?
From the domain of time. Time < = > energy, or “time is a matter of energy”?
We are dealing with a time variant energy transaction.
During each leg (and location in time) the conservation of energy laws and equations hold true are not violated. 
But also note that the equations(s) describing conservation of energy are lacking the term (element of time). That is where viscosity and in this case magnetic comes in place.
Considering magnetic viscosity as the time it takes for the magnet to register an opposing force when the magnet is exposed to a magnetic field. (as it is shown on the experimental graphs above) it would make sense.

A simple way to demonstrate:
Imagine a spring with a final spring constant of let’s say 1 Newton per meter. K=1N/m
Now assume that the spring has a time delay of 1 second (viscosity) to express this constant, after 1 meter deflection. At time 0 K=0 (or some other value less than 1N/m), and at time = 1 second k=1N/m

Now you push the spring 1 meter and you do that in less than 1 second. The spring will start reacting after 1 second.
First leg conservation of energy holds you’ve used no or little energy to move the spring, and after 1 second you have the spring ready to push back with 1 full Newton.
The difference is the gain in energy, rinse and repeat.

The time delay based on the experimental graphs above are very sort, so it would require high speeds of bringing the materials together. So move two magnets close in repulsion mode very fast, and within that small window of time before they start reacting to each other.
The net energy cost for that magnetic transaction is low or zero, then and after the time lag passes the magnets will pull apart due to the repulsion (after the time delay has passed and they register the repulsive force)

Is this patentable?
The information has been publicly available for sometime.
Edit to add another link to the graph, since it appears the original one posted about a year ago is not working anymore.
http://sites.google.com/site/steornpower/steorn1.jpg

 

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