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Author Topic: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel  (Read 28759 times)

Offline rlortie

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 02:34:09 AM »
Gentleman,

Peter Lindemann has responded with a reply regarding my release of our confidential agreement.

Below is a copy of his letter which I shall break down and respond to, paragraph by paragraph.

Quote
The article was written before you ran your tests, which is why "your efforts" are not mentioned.  As far as I am concerned, your preliminary tests did not constitute a "fair trial" of the ideas, since you were unwilling to meet with me or give me any input into the tests you ran.  This is why I believe the statement in the article is still correct.  The design is "unproven" either way.  Also, you made NO contribution to the ideas as they are represented in the article.

As to why my efforts are not mentioned is not a problem. As to my efforts I feel I did give it a fair trial and responded accordingly. The fact that I did not meet with you is twofold. First I wish to keep any personal bias from influencing an analytical research procedure. Second: IMO by the time a meet could have been scheduled I had ascertained that it was not cost effective to discuss a dead horse.

 True I made no contribution or claim to the idea. I only stated that my findings were of negative results. The primary problem as reported to you was that the pendulums must have a force exceeding the ratchet levers weight to engage, thus the ratchet lever mus be able to retain the pendulum. Centrifugal force on the roller cam of said lever will overcome this delicate balance releasing the pendulum prematurely. That is providing it ever obtains a point of latch which as Hans describes it will not achieve. 

Quote
The article, in its final form, is dated January 29, 2007.  This is the exact text of the article I have released.  I first contacted you on February 5, 2007 and sent you a copy of this exact article on the following day.  I have all of the emails of our correspondence in my files.  We also spoke on the phone and I specifically stated I wished to come to visit you so we could work out the fine details of the design.

Thanks for the occurred time reference. I can not verify as all records were destroyed as  per your wish. Peter you can come visit me anytime you wish, As for working out the final design, I felt would be a waste of time and expense. I did not and do not see any fine details to work out. It is your design,  I am not sold on it, I ran conclusive tests on the idea that convinced me is would not work.  I am not saying it will not work in general, it would not work for me!

Now that you have "Free sourced" the design, I can leave it up to those of interest to confirm or repute my findings. I have no 'think-tank' to offer on this design. 

Quote
Against my wishes, you ran some quick tests and told me that it didn't work, and that it was of no use for me to come visit
.

You may refer to my tests as 'quick' by your time. I gave it a fair and unbiased  analytical objective test using empirical experience of past education. My reputation for doing so is why I assumed you accepted the referral you received  bringing me to your attention. An experienced  hands on approach does not require a hypothesis, or pages of math,  Your design was sufficient and left no questions about its build or method of operation.  

Quote
If this is what you mean by "your efforts" than you are, of course, free to speak your truth.  But quite honestly, I can't imagine what you believe you are due to "receive recognition" for, other than running a few failed tests that I never saw and have no idea if they were related to my designs at all.

Thank you! and as you say I do not deserve or want recognition for your design, I only questioned the statement;
Quote
As of this writing, the Mechanical Engine has not been built and tested. The purpose of publishing the design “unproven” is to encourage its broad circulation among researchers, worldwide, without the burden of making claims and presenting proofs.

You have now explained this, by stating it was written one month before you contacted me. I wish now to claim that that the design has been researched to a point that  IMO of not being viable for farther analysis.  Once again I am not stating that the machine is a non-runner, this is my opinion and should not dampen the spirits of any enthusiast wishing to find out for themselves.
 
Quote
You told me that your simple, preliminary tests suggested to you that the design "didn't work" because the weights would just fly all the way out and stay on the perimeter.  But, to my knowledge, you never built the whole machine, or attempted to run it slow enough so that this phenomena did NOT occur.  Since proper function of the machine depends on the weights being able to spring back toward the center, your report that they "don't" simply indicated to me that you did not take the time to either understand the machine or attempt to test it in its "operating window".

I believe I carried the test far enough to observe that between the pendulums verses the ratchet roller arms there enough contention between Centrifugal force and Centripetal to negate functional operation.  Providing the  pendulum swing gained the required azimuth to lock into the ratchet, the roller cams effected by CF would allow it to unlock prematurely. A lower rpm of the embodiment and you lose the pendulum reciprocating cycle.

Quote
In our last phone call, we decided to end our efforts on the project.  I asked you to destroy your files and you agreed to.  I also wish to acknowledge that you have honored your commitment to keep the design confidential up until now.  Thank you.

In all fairness, Ralph, you are welcome to tell people that I contacted you with the design (as published) in February of 2007, and that you ran some preliminary tests which lead you to believe "whatever you believe".  If, however, you wish to tell people that "it doesn't work", I believe you are being unfair.  On the other hand, if you tell people about the tests you ran and your results, I have no problem with that.  You see, I believe your tests indicate that it will work IF the speed is restrained, so we have a difference of interpretation on your test results.  Also, if you have worked with the ideas since then, and you have made your own designs based on mine as a starting place, then simple state these facts and publish whatever you have done that is genuinely YOURS.

With due respect I thank you. I am not saying it does not work, only that my opinion differs, I have not worked with the idea nor have I made any designs based on your concept. I have nothing to report either as a follow-up or augmentation of your design. My own work is discussed by telephone, and private mail. I/we will publish when the time is right!  Remember, most of my work is based on confidential submitters which you have complimented me on for living up to my oath and integrity.

Quote
Just don't forget, both Veljko Milkovic, John Collins and others received copies of this article BEFORE I sent it to you, so you would be unwise to try to claim any credit for what is published in my article titled The Mechanical Engine.As long as you report honestly what happened, I have no problem with it.

In that respect you need not worry or give caution, having made an opinionated denouncement of the machine, why would I wish to claim any part of it? My only point is to clarify that the machine has been tested since your letter was written.

I will continue to advise and assist anyone wishing to pursue this concept in any  way that I can assist. A  pessimist and and optimist make for innovative debate.

Regards, and hopefully closing on a mutual understanding.

Ralph

« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 03:03:28 AM by rlortie »

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Offline spinner

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 12:38:54 PM »
G'day all,

Will NOT work. The position of the pendulum in segment 3 is not achievable with the device as drawn. The energy imparted to the spring is insufficient.

Hans von Lieven

Yes. Hans is  TOTALLY wright.... And Wattsup was the first to point out the " 3rd section problem"....
No further comment needed....


Mr. Lindemann,
Your document  is a good read (for the Bessler enthusiasts like me..., however, it doesn't "hold water"...
As simply as that. OK???

Cheers!

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 09:10:49 PM »
I took the 3rd section drawing to only be representative of what happened before.  NOT what will happen in that exact point in the rotation.  Lindemann states that he thinks the release, swing, return bounce, and catch on the ratchet must all occur within a 45 degree span of the wheel's rotation.  I would think it would/should/must occur in an even much smaller span of rotation.  The entire swing motion of the weights, from release to latch, would actually occur at the point of rotation shown approximately at the 2nd section and a few degrees after.  Of course the cam would have to be modified to allow for this to happen.

I believe this idea would benefit highly from a 2D simulation.  Is anyone working on one?

Thanks,

M.

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 09:10:49 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 09:20:55 PM »
I realise this Mondrasek, It does not matter though, my comments still stand.

Hans von Lieven

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 09:33:49 PM »
The position of the pendulum in segment 3 is not achievable with the device as drawn. The energy imparted to the spring is insufficient.

Hans,

I agree that the position of the weight shown in segment 3 appears to be a bit out of reach per the provided diagrams of the design.  But if you assume the wheel to be moving very slowly, and the release of the weighted pendulum is timed such that the weight is at 9 o'clock with respect to it's pivot point, would it not come back and catch somewhere on the ratchet, if not as far as drawn?  Again, assuming the cam was such that the ratchet lever also reset almost immediately after the pendulum released?

Thanks,

M.

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 09:33:49 PM »
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Offline rlortie

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 09:58:09 PM »
mondrasek,

I am sorry but Hans is correct.

I just received the following as an example from Ron P.  and a very fine example it is. Being experienced in the field of cranes I can only slap myself in the face for not thinking of it myself.

The following is from a crane operators hand book, author unknown.

Quote
A skilled operator, through proper techniques, can minimize the amount a load will swing. For example, as the trolley starts forward, the load because of its inertia, will tend to remain stationary as shown moving the trolley with a suspended load. If the crane operator momentarily stops the trolley and waits for the load to swing forward, he can again start the trolley moving at the same speed as the load at the moment that the load is directly under the trolley. The trolley and the load will then continue to move along at the same constant velocity until another acceleration or
deceleration is applied to the trolley.

 This same technique can be used to minimize swaying when the trolley is stopped. In this case the load will continue to travel forward after the trolley is stopped. At the precise moment that the velocity of the load becomes zero before it reverses direction the operator must step the trolley forward so that it is positioned directly over the load. These maneuvers depend on both the skill of the operator and on the speed and acceleration of the crane.

This is referred to as 'hook swing' and is a prime example of what will happen with the pendulums in Peters design. The traveling pivot point not unlike a crane trolley nullifies the bob swing.

In a follow up I received this:

Quote
funny thing is I am well aware that as you lower the pendulum
pivot point it kills the swing... but I missed it, but Hans got it right away.

Ralph
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 12:08:47 AM by rlortie »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 10:05:21 PM »
No Mondrasek,

if the wheel moves very slowly it makes it worse. The pendulum has its own natural frequency. The natural frequency of a pendulum is determined by the distance between the fulcrum and its centre of gravity and nothing else. By necessity the pendulum length is very short, therefore the thing in very fast, relatively speaking. As soon as the mechanism releases the pendulum it starts to swing. It reaches the opposite side very quickly and swings back before it gets even to the position indicated in the drawing. Because the arc at the point of release is small there will be very little power in it.

A design like this is not feasible, anyone who has studied pendulum physics can tell at a glance, without the need for calculation.

@ Ralph,

Correct, that is the other major snag and this one gets worse the higher the speed of the wheel.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 10:05:21 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 10:17:36 PM »
Ralph,

I appreciate the reply.  But I still have trouble with that explanation.  I can visualize several effects that work against the design if the wheel were to spin quickly, but these effects minimized towards zero as the speed of the wheel is minimized I think.  For example, if you look only at the diagram on page 5 you must admit that releasing the weight from the ratchet and (allowing the ratchet to reset after the weight has fallen past) would result in the weight swinging to the spring and then bouncing back, ultimately coming to rest somewhere on the ratchet again.  So while I agree at some rotational speed of the wheel this will no longer happen, I have to believe a slow speed range exists where it will.

Also, the design as presented appears to show all the elements (weighted pendulum, pivot point, release, etc.) in locations optimized for no additional forces due to the rotation of the wheel.  I wonder if the optimum design and locations of these elements would not change if the rotational conditions were also considered.  And I think this is what a 2D simulation could show.  Or, if not, it would be easier for me to visualize how the rotational forces at any speed prevent the expect motion of the static device shown on page 5.

Thanks again,

M.

Offline rlortie

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 10:34:00 PM »
mondrasek ,

As per my agreement with Peter I am not here to tell you it will not work. All I am giving is examples of why I think it will not work.

Rather than debate the issue I recommend that you utilize your enthusiastic pursuit.

It has always been my opinion that if you are in doubt then build it. If you don't it will cloud your mind of other innovative ideas. You are exactly what Peter is looking for, someone with the belief they can turn it into a runner.

Ralph

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 10:34:00 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 10:58:25 PM »
Ralph,

Your examples of why it will not work are exactly the feedback that I appreciate.  Same for Hans'.  Learning the reason why something will not work is as informative as learning why it will.

I believe this idea is simple enough to be modeled in 2D simulation software to my satisfaction, if I cannot otherwise grasp or visualize reasons that are given for it not to work.  I hope that someone with those capabilities and resources is willing to do so. I have no desire to build at this time. 

One interesting point that followed from one of Hans' comments:  One of Bessler's wheels was claimed to be 12 ft in diameter and ran without load at 26 RPM.  A (simple) pendulum of the same natural frequency would be of a length of 5.2 inches.  The size of such a wheel and pendulum appear to be in line.

M.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 11:25:04 PM »
@ Mondrasek and anyone interested in pendulum physics.


Professor Franz-Josef Elmer, University of Basel, Switzerland has created a virtual pendulum laboratory that you can download in its entirety. It will teach all aspects of pendulum physics via a series of lectures and Java applets where you can study pendulum behaviour in a virtual reality by changing the parameters and observe the altered behaviour. I recommend this highly. You will find it here:

http://monet.physik.unibas.ch/~elmer/pendulum/index.html

Have fun with this, I know I had.

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 11:25:04 PM »
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Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2009, 01:28:20 AM »
mondrasek

 I have a little test for you to try, This will help you understand.

 Take a weight on a string. Swing it back and forth and the drop it about 6 inches at its approximately 6:00 position. Then you will see what happens to the swing. It tends to nearly stop swinging.

When in doubt test it out.

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2009, 02:38:21 AM »
@AB Hammer,

Of that I have no doubt.

I believe my difficulty is with the frame of reference.  In your example, only the pivot point was abruptly changed, downwards, thus negating the force of gravity that causes a pendulum to continue to swing (indefinitely if friction is removed).  But if both the pendulum and the pivot point were initially moving downward at any given velocity, and then the pendulum was put in motion, would it still swing?  I believe it would.  In this new case both the pendulum and pivot are moving in the same frame of reference.  But if you add *acceleration* to either, then that changes things.

In the case of Lindemann's idea, both the pendulum and the pivot are in the same frame of reference I believe.  But they are both experiencing an acceleration due to the rotation of the wheel.  I believe this is centripetal force?  And depending on where in the rotational cycle this acceleration is allowed to act it can either aid or detract from the acceleration of gravity. 

This I cannot visualize and therefore connot immediately dismiss this concept.  So I hope to see a simulation, or build and experimental data.  I fear the math is beyond me.

M.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2009, 03:00:23 AM »
@ Mondrasek

Look at this. The pendulum does not swing back.

Hans von Lieven

Offline mondrasek

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Re: Peter Lindemann, The Mechanical Engine: A Re-Evolution of Bessler's Wheel
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2009, 03:11:20 PM »
Thanks Hans, but unfortunately I do not have access to Working Model software.  The demo version also does not allow me to open the file.

M.

 

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