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Author Topic: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz  (Read 57461 times)

Offline Kator01

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2009, 03:19:55 PM »
Hi Laurent,

I posted a drawing in thanes thread how to catch the energy back to the driving battery ( NiCd I proposed )
This is the most effective way because using another bypass to catch reactive-emf in another electronic element will mean another loss of energy. It simply does not make sense to do this.
I wonder why you have choosen the complicated way. You always have to think of losses with each additional element placed in the circuit ( current-path)

In the proposed way you can watch how the NiCd reloads or the other way around :  how it is drained which I hope it will do not.

Now why do I insist on this : I have done a lot of innovative development during the last 20 years, both electronically and in software-enngineering.
One thing I have learned the hard way : Do not go ahead with two many steps at one time neglecting basic steps necessaray in the first place. Just finish the basics.

Next systematic development-step in your case would be to find out how this one coil works with this  one magnet.
What is the estimated input and output. And of course eliminate errors ( losses by unnecessary element used )

Again : Why do I say this ? Because if the basic function is not satisfactory the following steps in development can be obliterated and you have to find a new way.
Think for youself of the time you might save. I have watched too many people fallen into this trap.

I repost the pics here again.

Regards

Kator01


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Offline gyulasun

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2009, 04:02:42 PM »
Hi Kator01,

sorry for chiming in here but I would like to understand your circuit on catching the energy back to the driving battery.

You showed two current directions,  forward in blue and backwards in red.  If you mean the forward current is flowing when the reed switch is ON then I understand it  but what potential or voltage difference gives the backward current via the diode?  Because the switch must be OFF to get the flyback pulse's energy, right?  What am I missing?

Please explain.

thanks,  Gyula

Offline Kator01

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 05:26:35 PM »
Hi Gyula,

no sorry for chiming in here, gyla. It really like it if you guys are attentive.

As a understand Laurents setup the reed is switched on while the magnet is approaching the coil. Which magnet he uses for this is not of importance, meaning it must not be the one just aproaching the coil. However Laurent did not answer my question (I asked twice ) how he starts moving the disc in the first place. But anyhow I assume he sort of starts spinning it manually.

Now the reed-switch closes ( upon approaching of the magnet) blue forward-current energizes the coil->magnet is attracted more so -> magnet recedes from the coil ( reed switches off )-> Red Reactive reverse.-current  ( not Back-EMF) which has its positve side now at the reed-switch and the negative-polarity at the left end of the coil flow via diode to the negative terminal of the battery.

I have to emphasize again  the difference between Back-EMF and Reactive-EMF. I already explained it in the thanes-thread. I once saw a good video which explained it very well.

The Reactive-EMF ( if the reed is open ) is caused by the break-down of the magnetic field-energy stored up in and around the space of the coil ( set up by the forwad-current) and can be catched in thee ways : The way I presented it, meaning back to the battery, or seperately in a condenser or as a reversed magnetic field by shorting the coil right after the the reed has opened which then either exerts a pull or push onto the  passing magnet ( this is happening in thanes setup )

The Back-EMF is the resistive voltage arrising in a coil which acts against the forward-current trying to rise to its full value.Back-EMF is occurring as a companion and at the same instant the forward-current wants to rise.
It can not be watched or measured as a seperate phaenomenon. You only can observe it by the time-delay of the forward-current rising. ( phase-angle )

This is very important to distinguish so we will not get mixed up wtih terms.

Regards

Kator01

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2009, 05:26:35 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2009, 05:50:50 PM »

Now the reed-switch closes ( upon approaching of the magnet) blue forward-current energizes the coil->magnet is attracted more so -> magnet recedes from the coil ( reed switches off )-> Red Reactive reverse.-current  ( not Back-EMF) which has its positve side now at the reed-switch and the negative-polarity at the left end of the coil flow via diode to the negative terminal of the battery.


Hi Kator01,

I still have the problem of the reverse current flowing through the diode :  How can that current flow when the right hand side of the coil (which is connected to the reed switch) is an open circuit?  The diode's cathode is connected to the left hand side of the coil and if you say the reactive reverse current comes from the coil when the reed is OFF, then how can it flow when the coil is an open circuit?

this has been my problem, ok?

thanks,  Gyula

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 06:38:49 PM »
@Khabe

hoho! very nice design :o

did you do this thing in reality ? it is exactly what i am looking for

thank's very much for the 2 magnets per UCC idea   and i have made a small test with a linear 3 magnets train in a UCC     it pushes very well much better than the same setup with only one magnet    so we could perhaps stay simple  organise a disk with more time       1 UCC pushing-pulling a 3 magnets train    but yoursetup is very interesting

@Kator01

thank's for following on this thread and for the shema you posted   the problem is that  all my electronic knowledge comes from what i learned on Perepiteia and my first test with this DEK motor so please be patient i will try to be a good student and i apreciate what you do :).
To start the motor  there is 2 ways  one to spin the rotor manually   second to place the reed actuator-magnet so it shut the reed and put the power on and it starts

cheers

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2009, 06:38:49 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 11:06:26 PM »
@all

Everything is going fast today  whaouuuu!!  ;D

thanks to the idea of Khabe  i made a further investigation and find out that  a " train " of 3 magnets is powerfull and than i made a test of what happens outside the UCC and the flux is also there but of course in the counter way  so i think to take out the whole power of a UCC  we can do like this ( attached drawing see polarities)

OK  i think we approach a way to get a torquy low speed DEK motor   and now   the timing    reedswitch   hallswitch  optoswitch  frictionswitch  otherswitch  ??      and for the nextstep  and the highpowerchampion how about the power stage     and finally  for the electronicdoctors  how about to recuperate the collapsing field ??

cheers

Laurent

Offline Kator01

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 01:18:22 AM »
Sorry gyulasun,

too much traffic going on at the moment in my mind - got it all mixed up.

See attached pic with corrected diode-position.

Kator01

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 01:18:22 AM »
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Offline BEP

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 02:42:18 AM »
i tried the 8 UCC and also a 8XUCC

the 8UCC attract strongly the magnet to it's center but as the magnet is twisted 90 degree in comparison with the UCC the magnet is also attracted sideway  against the coil.  Inside the UCC the pulse current pushes the magnet from one side to the other.  Feel free to test yourself it so easy to do and full of learning Wink        in the 8xUCC this a"bordel" flux path Huh


Is your pet of the Bordel breed?

I see your magnet orientation would do exactly as you have said. My suggestion was a variation of the transverse flux method. It will not work with your magnet orientation. Sorry  :)

Offline tishatang

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 05:18:56 AM »
Laurent and All

I may be crazy and getting old and senile, but yesterday was a day of synchronicity for me.  On the same day this thread was started there was this post on the Gray tube thread here:

 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6675.msg154832;topicseen#msg154832

Referencing this video here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azfxP9lBAao

The application is applying high voltage static electricity across the coil and opposite polarity to the low voltage DC current.  The collision creates extreme motive power not attained by just the low voltage.

Laurent, design your motor with this high voltage potential across the coil in mind.  Maybe this the way to get your power with light weight, no cores necessary.  This is a new ball game and the known laws of flux density with a given current will have to be rewritten. 

If this works, no need to have large gauge wire to carry large current adding weight.  Maybe you could salvage windings from old TV yokes.  Then carefully re-bend them to your configuration.  This would give you four coils per yoke of finer many turns coils ready made.  Then choose a bicycle wheel diameter in proportion to the resulting size coil for your prototype.  You could use the fly-back transformer of the TV for the high voltage source.  Maybe someone has a photo for Laurent of an old yoke to see what I am talking about?

You could attach an insulated wire, or maybe a rubber strap on you airplane behind the propeller.  Maybe just a piece of coax cable?  Attached a wire to the leading edge and a wire to the trailing edge.   These wires would be brought in and connected to the motor coils in the correct polarity.  The airstream flowing over the wire should generate high voltage static electricity?

Anyway, food for thought.
Chris
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 05:18:56 AM »
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Offline Kator01

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2009, 08:17:07 PM »
Hi Chris,

absolutly no idea how the high voltage is applied in this setup.
A lot of talking about weak magnets etc but no circuit-diagram how he applied the hv.

Any idea or better knowledge how this is done ?

What I could get from the vid is that he fires a sparkplug  not using the gap but a black cable which might lead the
hv-discharge-current in one part of the coil. So this would mean that there is no static-electricity there is a puls.
And if there is a puls then there is current and this is not a small amount of current .

Kator01



Regards

Kator01

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 08:58:04 PM »
Hi Chris

houlala  i hope that there will be a good possibility but i wiil wait until better understandind and diagram for this technology.

at the present i am making measurement around  a pulsed UCC as per picture here under

what i have noticed so far is

there is a train of 9 magnet s beeing inflenced by the pulsed UCC  3 in the axis and 3+3 sideway along the axis

if the force of the pulsion on the center magnet is equal to( let's say ) 1  than the following magnet which are outside of the UCC get 0.5 force each  (one repelling and one attracting)     that is for the central magnets   1 +0.5 + 0.5 = 2

the sideway magnet get less force  and the one traveling in the middle of the UCC get  a force  of 1  and the following magnet  get a force of 0.25 each (attracting and repelling  )  so       that is for the outside magnets   0.5 + 0.25 + 0.25 =1 and as there is two side the force =1 + 1 = 2

so to resume  a UCC with one magnet  give a motive force of   1 and if you organise a "train of 9 magnets you get  a  motive force of 4  under the same pulse.

elle est pas belle la vie!! ;D

Laurent


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2009, 08:58:04 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2009, 09:17:05 PM »
Use 4 big cylindrical magnets and feed the coil with DC. If you want more info tell me.

Edit: Just realized that the suggestion wouldn't work.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2009, 09:42:10 PM by broli »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2009, 10:07:24 PM »
Sorry gyulasun,

too much traffic going on at the moment in my mind - got it all mixed up.

See attached pic with corrected diode-position.

Kator01

OK,  thanks!  Maybe a small update at Thane's thread is also in order where you uploaded the previous schematics.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2009, 10:44:54 PM »
ouups  :(

just a small correction  of course in the outside traveling magnet     the one in the center  get only 0.5 force  and not  1 as i mentionned   but the total result is  4 anyway

@all

to the interested people whou intend to help for the timing method  i  enclose a picture of the one i use     very simple  you get a CD box and normally  on the top  of it there is a blank CD transparent  for protection   and than you make your division as you think and let spin the transparent disk with the marking to practically see what happen   good luck


@BEP

 just for fun i found a picture of the 8UCC  and the very tortured and bordelic 8XUCC ;D

good night

Laurent

Offline BEP

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2009, 05:07:30 AM »
@BEP

 just for fun i found a picture of the 8UCC  and the very tortured and bordelic 8XUCC ;D

good night

Laurent

The green one is very much like mine. I've been looking for the photos of mine - not found so far. The coil creates a well defined dipole field between the loops that is completely surrounded by a larger reverse field.
I used mine to rotate a large copper disc. It was interesting to have the two fields turn inside-out on reversal.

BEP

 

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