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Author Topic: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz  (Read 57400 times)

Offline woopy

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DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« on: February 02, 2009, 09:31:57 PM »
Hello everyone

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Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2009, 09:43:57 PM »
ooups  :(

i started this thread almost unwillingly  but no problem  i am probably emotionned

ok here we go


the aim of this topic is to realise an electric motor  to power my ultralight aicraft

this aircraft already flies with differents electric motors

please see


Laurent

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 10:28:56 PM »
ok now what i try to do


an electric motor    that spin slowly (about 1200 rpm ) to direct drive a propeller of 1.30 meter diameter which could push 50 kg  and than will be able to let the ultralight cruise at about 60 kmh with the minimum electrical consumption.

that is to say that i wil try to reach about 12 to 15 kw  output power with of course the minimal input power.

in other words it will be a big disk of magnets        very light   and high torque

thinking of this, i have seen on this forum the Perepiteia  (very very interesting and promising   just my advice visit it ) from Thane Heins and his work leads me to think of a special setup.

and here we are

i have thought that if  i could get a coil through which a permanent magnet coul travel        but non linear       but along a circle path        so we could obtain a circular solenoid motor. without the crankshaft  and friction and and and...

so i thought of this

to make flat coil than curve it to obtain this

this is a U_coil

the advantage of this U-coil is that it doesn need a core to transmit its power to the magnet      the magnet  is "enveloped" in the coil as it would be in a solenoid    but  free to rotate to another coil to get new power and so on

i called this coil the U-corelesscoil  (UCC)



I open this thread without any pretention  but simply to share this idea   and i hope that it will be interesting to you      and that we will get good result in working together to see if this UCC has any value







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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2009, 10:28:56 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2009, 10:45:00 PM »
 so  my first very crude prototype

based on this drawing

the very basic setup is powered by a 4.5 volt battery  and the pulse is timed by a reedswitch

the rotor is made with a stack of 3 CD and  i inserted 3 square neodymium magnets in slots at each 120 degrees.

the magnets has the polarity (they follow eacg other)

the reedswitch is clamped so i can tune at will

this setup is very easy to replicate and i encourage you to do ;)

Offline sushimoto

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 11:06:17 PM »
Hi Laurent,
this looks very promising and refreshingly simple to adapt as an real motor.
Is it the next step in the evolution of Thanes work and your experience with your
Lynch-Motor?

Thanks for opening a separate thread for it.

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2009, 11:06:17 PM »
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Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2009, 11:07:45 PM »
and now let's go forward

1-- the first  aim is to make a motor and it seems to be possible   so how to improve it in the terms of high torque at slow spinning  "  YES WE CAN "

2-  is it possible to get returning energy from the collapsing field in the UCC (U-CorelessCoil) to improve the  ultralight flight duration. ?

so  (as i  recently posted some of this informations  in the Perepiteia thread ) i  got from one participant of thi forum under nick name Nali2001 a circuit to get this energy back    and i made it   and it works which is very encouraging

an other friend pmed me to try if it would be possible to get some generating possibilities by using a separate coil and the influence onthe main rotor

here the set up

and tomorrow the result ;)



i hope that this thread will be of interest

regards


Laurent

Offline khabe

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 11:44:34 PM »
Yes it works,
Was ca 6...7 years ago (perhaps earlier ... or later ...) somewhere in German site,
Was disk magnets, axially magnetized ...perimetrically SN..NS...SN...NS ...
I found this link address when did read interesting stuff in some kind of Yahoo forum about electric motors ... LRK or ... who knows, dont remember ...
Father and son in Germany, both engineers, invented and patented ... was also 3-phase machine,
Was detailed description, explanations, drawings, pictures ...
I have tried to find again it several times during past few years - no way,
Perhaps some Deutscher Sprache member can help,

Cheers,
khabe

But you want to fly?
Im not sceptic - not at all, I like to build motors and I have built a lot of ... included "fly-able" ones,
But ... in principle I dont believe you can get any serious power from such kind of design ... main reason is
missing of flux returning parts from outer side - its funny and interesting thing - nice experiments , but not machine you need.

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2009, 11:44:34 PM »
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Offline khabe

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2009, 11:56:55 PM »
and now let's go forward

1-- the first  aim is to make a motor and it seems to be possible   so how to improve it in the terms of high torque at slow spinning  "  YES WE CAN "

2-  is it possible to get returning energy from the collapsing field in the UCC (U-CorelessCoil) to improve the  ultralight flight duration. ?

so  (as i  recently posted some of this informations  in the Perepiteia thread ) i  got from one participant of thi forum under nick name Nali2001 a circuit to get this energy back    and i made it   and it works which is very encouraging

an other friend pmed me to try if it would be possible to get some generating possibilities by using a separate coil and the influence onthe main rotor

here the set up

and tomorrow the result ;)



i hope that this thread will be of interest

regards


Laurent

Mh-mhh,
Seems there you are doing wrongly.
Are these flat restangle magnets N in one side and S on another?
If yes then NO WAY!
Flux need to be by direction of circumference ... and placed as I described in my past message ->SN<->NS<- distance between adequate to size of your "coils".
cheers,
khabe

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 12:40:42 AM »
@Knabe

thank's for interest

please  understand that i already fly with electric motors  and it works  very well       and what i am looking for        is not evasive ore  negative answer to a proposal solution      but your help to  improve 

and reach if it is possible a practical reality in full scale
 

so if you have something for helping you'r welcome 


 @all

if you can post photos or drawings of your proposals  it would be very helpfull

thank's


happy landing

Laurent


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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2009, 12:40:42 AM »
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Offline tishatang

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2009, 05:46:37 AM »
Hi Laurent

Here is a link to circuits to help capture the bemf of pulsed coils.  It explains the design concepts to help you understand why you would choose one design over another. 

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/

If you succeed in building such a motor the concepts could be applied to a bicycle hub motor.  There would be a large market for such a motor, especially if it doubled the distance traveled on a given battery.  The market is in China where there are millions of Ebikes and Escooters.

Chris

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 11:59:40 AM »
thank's for interest

@sushimoto

the lynch motor is fantastic     great torque and very good efficiency       before flying i used them for gokarting incredible torque.  But for flying it spin something too high ,My 1.3 meter prop spin at 2500 rpm and at this speed the blade tips are very noisy.
I think that for electric flight the prop has to be very silent so you can fly without disturbing the neighborhoud (for info the lynch motor get about 50 volts at about 280 amps and swings the prop at 2500 rpm which gives about 55 kg of push)

the aim of the DEK motor is to reduce the rpm to about 1200  with a 1.3 meter prop (of course i will have to enlarge the blades to absorb the power)

@Khabe

I enclose a better photo so you can see how the magnet are arranged with the polarity and timing

The motor UCC is the red one on the bottom of the set up      the green coil (one large on the top and one thin on the right) are put there to make a test to use  UCC as generator

When i short cut the green UCC the rotor speed drops a bit  around 100 rpm. the large one drops more than the thin one  (notice that both grenn UCC have the same turns number as the red motorUCC)

I will make better measurement as soon as possible.

@tishatang

very interesting link thank's i will study

@all

some drawings to make the DEK motor with UCC more clear i hope        and why Lenz is boxing against himself in a UCC if it does ??

to be clear  the small motor with the orange prop is not  the DEK motor it is a load to see if there is some power to get from the BEMF of the red motor UCC (when the rotor spin at 1100 rpm the small dc motor  spin at about 1680 rpm and the leds lit very brightly             btw DEK is the name of my dog it comes from a joke we made in the Perepiteia thread :)

Laurent

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2009, 11:59:40 AM »
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Offline sushimoto

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2009, 12:20:15 PM »
thank's for interest

@sushimoto

the lynch motor is fantastic     great torque and very good efficiency       before flying i used them for gokarting incredible torque.  But for flying it spin something too high ,My 1.3 meter prop spin at 2500 rpm and at this speed the blade tips are very noisy.
I think that for electric flight the prop has to be very silent so you can fly without disturbing the neighborhoud (for info the lynch motor get about 50 volts at about 280 amps and swings the prop at 2500 rpm which gives about 55 kg of push)

the aim of the DEK motor is to reduce the rpm to about 1200  with a 1.3 meter prop (of course i will have to enlarge the blades to absorb the power)

<SNIP>

some drawings to make the DEK motor with UCC more clear i hope        and why Lenz is boxing against himself in a UCC if it does ??

to be clear  the small motor with the orange prop is not  the DEK motor it is a load to see if there is some power to get from the BEMF of the red motor UCC (when the rotor spin at 1100 rpm the small dc motor  spin at about 1680 rpm and the leds lit very brightly             btw DEK is the name of my dog it comes from a joke we made in the Perepiteia thread :)

Laurent

Hi laurent,
thanks for answering and sorry for beeing a bit offtoppic.

I am very interested in UL (especially gyrocopters) and currently investigating on
"state of the art" motors. I think my path will be very much like yours.
Searching, whats best "off the shelf" and what can we do to enhance existing stuff.

Assuming that the Agni motor is best tested, why not using some gearbox or less volts in order to reduce rpm?
So i appreciate your experience and conclusion so far and will try to collaborate to your further experiments.

best regards,

Offline BEP

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2009, 01:36:21 PM »
@woopy

A suggestion:

While your new coil is still flat, twist it into a 'figure 8' shape before folding it into the 'figure U'.

Please consider the interesting polarities but test before deciding what those polarities are. You should see they are not what you may think.

I think this action may help your quest.

BEP

Offline khabe

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 01:55:16 PM »
thank's for interest


@Khabe

I enclose a better photo so you can see how the magnet are arranged with the polarity and timing

The motor UCC is the red one on the bottom of the set up      the green coil (one large on the top and one thin on the right) are put there to make a test to use  UCC as generator

When i short cut the green UCC the rotor speed drops a bit  around 100 rpm. the large one drops more than the thin one  (notice that both grenn UCC have the same turns number as the red motorUCC)

I will make better measurement as soon as possible.


Laurent

Yes, correct,
Anyway two magnets per each coil is twice better ...<->SN<->NS<->SN<->NS...
cheers,
khabe

Hereby one phase version ofConfrontational magnets - flux expanded widely between magnets - through coil wires - (this "meeting point" is what works with wires ("coil") by left hand rule ("motor rule"))
so - the right position is when :  ...->NS<-/left side coil/->SN<-/right side coil/->NS<- ...
When 3-phases then windings B and C places between phase A,
Bit complicated to make those next windings but exercisable,

Regards,
khabe
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 03:17:25 PM by khabe »

Offline woopy

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Re: DEK motor with U-coreless coil or Lenz boxing against Lentz
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 02:48:22 PM »
@sushimoto

you are right in the track

but a gear box is heayy, make noise, is expensive, is subject to malfunction and loose efficiency .  furthermore the lynch motor is already heavy 11 kg original      and 7.5 kg as per the photos here above but after very expensive work and it is prototype

lowering the volts = lowering the power and we need quite a lot of watts to fly  and especially for a gyrocopter which gliding perfo is not very high.  But you could perhaps use a UCC to prerotate your gyrorotor

there is big outrunner motor type LRK which are light and very efficient Dr Werner Eck in germany makes something or Yuneec for paramotoring (simply Google these names) but all are spinning quite high. Another problem with these motor are the controllers very expensive at not always reliable.

so the idea here is to make a very large disk  ( about 40 to 50  centimeter diameter , perhaps a bicycle wheel) and very thin with magnets around and to pulse-push these magnets with  UCCs.   the UCCs will not be all around the disk but there will be about 5 to and 6 UCCs each powered separately with 50 amps (at 56 volts)and than you regulate the power by adding or supressing the alimentation on theUCC.  The more connected UCCs(in parallel) the more power on the disk    It will be something as a geared electrical variation.    I will post a drawing of the idea :P


@BEP

thank's for interest

i tried the 8 UCC and also a 8XUCC

the 8UCC attract strongly the magnet to it's center but as the magnet is twisted 90 degree in comparison with the UCC the magnet is also attracted sideway  against the coil.  Inside the UCC the pulse current pushes the magnet from one side to the other.  Feel free to test yourself it so easy to do and full of learning ;)        in the 8xUCC this a"bordel" flux path ???

Laurent

 

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