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Availbale Products, Material- and Service suppliers => Do It Yourself => Topic started by: z.monkey on January 23, 2009, 07:10:32 PM
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Howdy,
Been having a hard time finding information about winding planar coils. Now-a-days they are all printed on a circuit board in those very expensive DC to DC converters. There are not many garage engineers out there that are dealing with these type of coils I guess...
So I decided to use a CD-ROM as the "substrate" for the coil. The wire will be glued to the CD in the final form. I needed a way to hold everything together until I could apply glue to it. So the base is a piece of 3/8" plywood. There is a center shaft which is a 1/4" machine screw. I used some strategically place fender washers to be the inside wall for the windings, and also provides the correct spacing between the base and the holder arms. The holder arms piece was originally plywood, but I found that it didn't have the structural rigidity that was required. So I fabricated another piece out of 1/2" thick fiberglass board. I would really like to make this out of aluminum, but that is mo $$$. So far I build the entire thing out of scrap materials laying around the shop, so its free, right?
I'll post some other pictures later, after I get the coil glued together...
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Wow that's quite smart. Thanks for sharing.
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Here is the finished Flapjack Coil...
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Very tidy result Z.Monkey! See you´ve got the in circuit debugger on the bench ;)
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I don't want any buggers in my circuits...
I have the primary built now too...
I'll take a picture when I get home...
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Wow that's quite smart. Thanks for sharing.
Hey Broli,
I would like to say that I just threw the thing together and it all worked...
But, you know, engineering stuff never works like that. I probably spent about two full days fabricating. I probably spent like three weeks thinking about how to do this. I remember seeing pictures of Tesla's"pancake" coils, but how did he manufacture them? That is a big ass problem! It takes a precision jig to make something like this. Then you have to take the jig apart so that you can glue the substrate to it...
Maybe it will become easier with time...
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I decided to use an Iron tube core...
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This way I can mount it with out putting stress on the flapjack coil...
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I'll need to build up a pedestal to support the core...
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Make a pretty outline...
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I love playing with the jig saw...
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Lets do a dry fit...
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Glue the pedestal sections together...
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Glue the Core to the Pedestal...
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Ready to wind the primary coil...
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@zmonkey
You are a good experimenter. That looks very well!
Jesus
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Yeah, nice handicraft there Zmonkey! :)
... sorry but may I ask what you're building exactly?
;)
regards,
Koen
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Thanks Boss (Jesus), because you know Jesus is Boss...
Koen, That is the future...
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Flaxjax!
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Z monkey can you do me a favor please. Can you power on one of those pancake coils under some iron filings or magnetic sheet to see how the field looks and take some pictures of it. To be more specific whether it's nicely radial or not.
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@Z.Monkey
It looks like your secondary will counter itself - the top and bottom halves will have counter polarity.
Other than that your coil reminds me of what a 'Tesla Coil' should look like - secondaries above and below the primary.
Nice looking work!
BEP
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@broli
It looks like your secondary will counter itself - the top and bottom halves will have counter polarity.
Other than that your coil reminds me of what a 'Tesla Coil' should look like - secondaries above and below the primary.
Nice looking work!
BEP
I think you have the wrong guy ;D.
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I think you have the wrong guy ;D.
I certainly did! Sorry.
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The vertical center (red) coil is the primary...
It establishes the major axis of the magnetic field...
The planar coil (yellow) is the secondary...
It sits on the equatorial orbital plane of the magnetic field...
It would be difficult to apply paper to this transformer to look at the magnetic field. I am thinking that I can dump some iron filings directly on to the coil, apply some direct current and some vibration and maybe get a idea of what the magnetic field really looks like. It would be nice to have a magnetic flux camera, or something that would fluoresce the flux. This is the trouble with magnetism, we can't see it. Transformer design would be a LOT easier if we could see magnetic flux....
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Ah!
The yellow is the secondary.
Pancake coils are a bit unique in that polarity is radial. i.e. North in the center and South at the outer diameter.
If you pulse or alternate the current in the primary you should see this. I don't know how well it will perform.
If the primary current is unchanging then nothing should come out of the secondary unless you add a static electric source at a right angle to your magnetic (something for Lorentz to work on).
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I am going to run it with 120 VAC from my ElectroMechanical Inverter...
I was only going to apply DC only to look at the magnetic field...
Its a transformer, so yeah the current has to be wiggling to get the effect...
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I think AC will do the trick as well as the filings or w/e will not physically flip over, I assume?. Although I was interested in the pancake on its own for another project I'm working/thinking of.
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There are many alternate applications of the flapjack coil...
There is a reason Tesla was interested in these, lets find out...
Accretion of electrons happens in the equatorial orbital plane of the magnetic field. The flapjack coil energized by itself (I think) will still develop a magnetic field with the same major axis (where the red coil is now). But will collect the energy that it puts into the magnetic field back onto itself. So the result would be an extra large back EMF. This is because the coil sits on the equatorial orbital plane of the magnetic field, and collects the accretion of electrons formed in the field. Think about this, the major axis is formed in the center of the loops of wire, perpendicular to the windings. So the Flapjack coil would generate an abnormal amount of back EMF, which would make it good for one of those battery charger things like a Bedini circuit...
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Congratulations @zmonkey
That work is finished and ready to test!
Jesus
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@Z.Monkey
Pancake coils are a bit unique in that polarity is radial. i.e. North in the center and South at the outer diameter.
Apply some current to that pancake coil and test it with a compass. You will see what I mean.
I agree with most of what you say but not with the polarity part.
BEP
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I think BEP understands this too.
The reason why I want to find out is because of this.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6856.0;topicseen
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@zmonkey
I did not want to say anything yet, but I am having a tremendous success!!!!!!
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6362.msg158838#msg158838
Jesus
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I am having a tremendous success!!!!!!
Howdy,
That is quite a long thread. I need to read through it to understand what you are doing...
My goal here is to run a motor with a 1.5v or 9v battery and charge the battery while running the motor.
So you are making something similar to a Bedini Charger. Use the Back EMF to recharge the drive battery? Recycle that energy, good job...
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I think BEP understands this too.
The reason why I want to find out is because of this.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6856.0;topicseen
@Broli
As long as you keep the pancake at ONE (1) layer the poles will be radial. The problem with poles is there are none ;)
Magnetic flux goes in a recirculating flow. Compasses only align themselves with the flow. They don't point to a pole. No different than a flag in the wind.
This is why Earth generally has more than one of each magnetic pole. Putting two wires side by side concentrate the flux along the axis between the centers of those two or more wires. So, two or more layers and the pancake starts looking like a common solenoid coil.
The real beauty of this type of coil is it tells Lenz to blow. The induced field is perpendicular to the approaching field instead of opposing.
Bang one of these with a sharp spike and there is a 'clapping' in the center like no other. It is like stomping on a ripe banana. Everything squirts out the axis.
Ever wonder why Tesla coils work? Ever think about putting two separate secondaries on one? One above and one below the primary pancake coil.
It can be very enLightning!
BEP
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I agree that pancake coils can do interesting things. But you are ahead of me on those things ;D. I'll try and think of more things that can be done with pancake coils.
Edit: Attached is a simulation I just did of a cross section of TWO pancake coils on top of each other. As suspected the field is nicely radial in the middle (red area). I'm still figuring out its mechanics a bit. The past few days I stopped looking at the law of induction and started solely looking at coils from the perspective of the Lorentz force. Which gives for interesting realizations.
Another thing I was asking myself a few days ago was "how can one make an instantaneous magnetic field". In other words how can a coil produce a magnetic field without any back emf. And the pancake coil seems to be the answer. It acts just like a resistor but gives you a magnetic field as a bonus without any "charge time".
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Y'all keep using the term pancake, do you not like flapjack?
I'm in Texas, so I might as well call it a tortilla coil...
It is yellow, like a maiz tortilla...
The proper term is planar coil...
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FlapJack it is then... ;D
The lines shown on the equatorial plane should be from charged/moving particle angular movement. At least that is the way it works on my bench :)
@broli
Look at a similar 'sim' on a single layer coil. Any more than one layer and it is no longer interesting. On a single layer coil from the top center it may appear as North. From the bottom center the same wire section will appear as South.
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I agree that pancake coils can do interesting things.
Howdy Broli,
Your simulation shows that the magnetic major axis is formed in the center of the loops of wire, perpendicular to the windings. No matter whether it is one winding or many the major axis forms in the center of the loops and perpendicular to the windings. This establishes that the planar coil will make a magnetic field which is analogous to a solenoid, except that it is exaggerated in the X/Y Plane and not on the Z axis like a solenoid.
In the simulation the two planar coils are pressed together tightly and there is no Z axis clearance in the center of the planar coils. Lets deal with one magnetic field first. Keep in mind that the accretion happens in the centers of the magnetic loops. This center is where the slowest movement of flux occurs. This allows the extremely high frequency magnetic flux currents come down to a frequency where we can perceive and manipulate them. This down conversion of energy is what makes the magnetic flux turn in to electron energies that we can use. So the planar coil only needs to cover the center region of the equatorial orbital plane. It should (preliminary guess) only require around 50% of the area of the plane and be oriented in the center of the plane between the magnetic major axis and the extreme edge of the magnetic filed. This would allow for a relatively large core on the magnetic major axis (Z axis) to maximize the magnetic field. The magnetic major axis (Z axis) core defines the extent of the magnetic field.
So do you want to simulate the Flapjack Coil as I built it? The magnetic major axis core is 0.850 inches in diameter, which the outer 0.120 inches in the 18 gauge wire, and the remainder is soft iron tubing and a #2 Steel 1/2 inch machine screw. The planar coil substrate is a the remainder of a CD-ROM. I stripped the media off of it so it is just a piece of plastic, no magnetic value. Both coils are secured with epoxy, again no magnetic value. There is a strange core property which is bothersome to me. I have the core bolted to a piece of poplar to secure it. I also have a poplar spacer at the top of the core to provide a equal distance between the ends of the core and the planar coil. This means that I have a bolt in the middle, then there is a fender washer on each side, then the poplar, then another fender washer, then a split lock washer, then a 1/2 inch nut on each side. I would like to make this core as short and squat as possible, but haven't found a good way to mount it yet. It is critical that the planar coil is exactly in the center on the Z axis (magnetic major axis), and plumb, and square...
I don't have a magnetic simulator. I do have a lot of spice tools, EDA stuff. I have never trusted computer simulations. I have always be the kind of guy to build it, run it, then check the math.
There is another thread where they are experimenting with a solenoid type coil but using NdFeB magnets as the core. I am going to make another version of this coil which has the NdFeB magnets as the core. Here is a link...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6844.0;topicseen
The accretion happens when the magnetic flux loops fluctuate. This means you only have to make them wiggle a little to get the magic to happen. So the idea is to take a really strong magnetic field, and then modulate it. We already have a super dense magnetic flux environment with the NdFeB magnets. We use the electronics to make this already dense field wiggle and we should be able to collect an significant amount of electron energies...
The original idea of modifying the transformer to maximize accretion is still at work here, but the addition of the NdFeB magnets can help to maximize this effect. Fortunately, standard off the shelf magnets can be used to achieve this effect, here is a link...
http://www.magcraft.com/products/ring/index.html
OK, Mo Later...