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Author Topic: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!  (Read 178244 times)

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2009, 11:53:03 PM »
The one with 3 leg is a IR Receiver so  if both came in the same package , the one with two leg is a IR Transmitter, not a led light.

Thank you @icestorm !

Jesus

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #150 on: February 24, 2009, 11:53:03 PM »

Offline plengo

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #151 on: February 25, 2009, 05:21:17 AM »
After finding my eureka, I decided to record a video and in doing it I HAD to stop the fan and change the settings to demonstrate that the voltage will indeed fall while when well tunned it will not.

Oh boy, as I did that I could never find that sweet spot again. I am so pissed. I even modified another fan so happy that I got my eureka but no luck. After loosing the sweet spot the voltage drop super fast.

Now I am playing with a new fan and different magnets. Unfortunately I dont have a hard drive magnet to play with but I do have many neos of different sizes and shapes. So far no good.

Unless someone come up with more ideas I will simply extinguish all my options and give up. I am totally convinced that I got it to work getting the voltage going up but it is very, very, very, very difficult to get that sweet spot, specially using magnets stuck to the fan. I really wish a good advice here!

Fausto.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2009, 05:50:26 AM »
Fausto:

First, don't ever give up.

Second, here is a thought for you.  Try removing the magnets and then fire it up and tune for best amp draw (least) as you did before adding the magnets.  Then, add the magnets back and retune.......I guess what I am suggesting here is that you recreate all of the steps that got you to where you were before.  Possibly, when you tune it with the magnets and then stop it later, something happens that won't allow you to find the sweet spot again. So, just do it like before and tune it without the magnets.  Stop it, and add the magnets and retune.  If this does work please do not expect me to explain to you why, other than that was the way you did if before if I was following you correctly.

Third, don't give up.

Bill

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #152 on: February 25, 2009, 05:50:26 AM »
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Offline plengo

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #153 on: February 25, 2009, 05:55:22 AM »
@Pirate88179

thank you Bill. It is encouraging your words. Good idea. Sometimes I forget to step back and look at it again with the gained knowledge.

Fausto.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #154 on: February 25, 2009, 01:26:55 PM »
After finding my eureka, I decided to record a video and in doing it I HAD to stop the fan and change the settings to demonstrate that the voltage will indeed fall while when well tunned it will not.

Oh boy, as I did that I could never find that sweet spot again. I am so pissed. I even modified another fan so happy that I got my eureka but no luck. After loosing the sweet spot the voltage drop super fast.

Now I am playing with a new fan and different magnets. Unfortunately I dont have a hard drive magnet to play with but I do have many neos of different sizes and shapes. So far no good.

Unless someone come up with more ideas I will simply extinguish all my options and give up. I am totally convinced that I got it to work getting the voltage going up but it is very, very, very, very difficult to get that sweet spot, specially using magnets stuck to the fan. I really wish a good advice here!

Fausto.


@ Fausto

Over the last couple of days I have been reducing my fan running current from 100mA down to the present 20mA in steps. I have not yet reached a perfect stabilised point but after each stepped reduction of current I see a slow increase in battery voltage back up to almost the same level as before the current reduction was made. This climb in voltage can last for as long as three hours before it starts to very slowly drop again. Its hard to see when the climb ends and the drop begins because I'm not setup to measure the voltage in 100ths of a volt which is really necessary for this experiment. I just need to check with you that this is not the effect you are seeing because this IMO is a normal battery recovery situation which would usually appear to be much quicker if the discharge current level was a lot higher. This voltage climb could be even longer in yours and Gadget's case because you are both using a 48V fan and will be running at a lower current level than me with a 24V modified fan.

Hoppy
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 02:43:33 PM by Hoppy »

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #154 on: February 25, 2009, 01:26:55 PM »
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Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #155 on: February 25, 2009, 02:10:34 PM »
@plengo

When I get stuck building something, what I usually do is that I stop what I am doing and prepare myself a good cup of coffee without any hurry and while the coffee is on the microwave I refresh my eyes with cool water. When the coffee is done I sit on my living room hammock and enjoy it slowly, then suddenly an idea pops up inside my head. If I can do it inside my head while sipping coffee peacefully, then I can do it on the real world. Almost all the failures are visualized before they happen.
The same thing if you go for a walk or a bicycle ride.

Jesus

Offline plengo

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #156 on: February 25, 2009, 04:11:53 PM »

@ Fausto

Over the last couple of days I have been reducing my fan running current from 100mA down to the present 20mA in steps. I have not yet reached a perfect stabilised point but after each stepped reduction of current I see a slow increase in battery voltage back up to almost the same level as before the current reduction was made. This climb in voltage can last for as long as three hours before it starts to very slowly drop again. Its hard to see when the climb ends and the drop begins because I'm not setup to measure the voltage in 100ths of a volt which is really necessary for this experiment. I just need to check with you that this is not the effect you are seeing because this IMO is a normal battery recovery situation which would usually appear to be much quicker if the discharge current level was a lot higher. This voltage climb could be even longer in yours and Gadget's case because you are both using a 48V fan and will be running at a lower current level than me with a 24V modified fan.

Hoppy
No, it is not what I have. I passed that phase already. I am at the 7ma current level now. In my last eureka moments what I have is really a voltage not dropping at all and actually going up. I am using an SLA in series with a wet cell lead acid. This way I can see the voltage of the SLA in a few minutes (like about 2 minutes) going up or down. At 24v and with a small SLA I can get by not having a meter with hundreds of a volt a measurement accuracy. This way I can very fast see if the device is properly tuned or not. Just for you to understand, I let the battery rest until no voltage change is noticable for the next 10 minutes. It is really at rest. Tunned the fan (position the magnets) and put it to spin. If the voltage goes down on the small SLA (5 amp/hour battery) it is no good. Stop, let the voltage rest another 10 minutes and start over again. Do that about 100 times on a day. Sleep late and youtube while you do that.

What I have been experiencing is indeed, while running, a voltage increase. The problem is that I must find the correct positioning of the magnets on the fan and it is simply not easy neither documentable. Even if I get it right, how can I study it without breaking the sweet spot and start from zero again?

This is a very sensitive device. It would be good to be able to formulate some theories why this is even possible, if I am not craizy neither gadgetmall.

There is a spot where the fan just spin at around 130 to 150rpm max and the sound becomes this 2 bips (lots of radiant on each one) that is very similiar to a goose, but there is no discernable wave pattern difference. One spot will simply work and others will not. It is really dog work.

Just for completeness, I am using 3 sk3606 on the positive of the battery + a few more diodes (they help to get to the minimun current consumption to 7ma average). My resistance is two 10k resistors plus a 5k pot (positioned at the max) and a 470 ohm resistor. All totalling 25470 ohms to the dot. That is the setup I found to work and have not changed since them. The only parameter being changed here is the magnet positioning. The system is running at around 12.55v (SLA) + 12.01v (Wet cell, and I know 12.01 is pretty low but who cares), totalling 24.56v. My fan has 150 ohm resistance on two widding and 150 ohm on the other two widding.

if you bring the current really down like I did, you will notice that at 140rpm the sound will be very peculiar and sounding really like a goose. That's where the miracle is happening. It is not about having power or current it is really about something else that we can not see on the scope or meters. The magnets somehow are interacting with the pulsating of the coils and charging the batteries.


Fausto.

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #156 on: February 25, 2009, 04:11:53 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #157 on: February 25, 2009, 05:19:00 PM »
Thanks for your detailed procedure Fausto, much appreciated. I can hear the goose but I think I need to go lower in current to get the charging effect you are seeing.

Hoppy

Offline AbbaRue

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2009, 05:49:14 PM »
One problem with these computer fan bedini motors is the fan blade. 
If we could build one of these without the fan blades that blow air we would have a lot more power
going back to the battery.
Right now most of the energy is wasted blowing that air around.
@plengo
Maybe the problem is you are stopping the fan from blowing freely with something blocking it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #158 on: February 25, 2009, 05:49:14 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #159 on: February 25, 2009, 06:11:17 PM »
@ Fausto

A possible problem I can see using two batteries in series, is that I have found that when there is a difference in voltage between the batteries, one can rise in potential during discharge. I'm not saying that this is happening in your case but it is possible.

I have now reduced my fan speed as much as possible whilst remaining stable and I will monitor this over the next few hours. If I detect a drop in voltage I will then reposition my magnet. I'm using a flat hard disk magnet as per Gadget's suggestion. Once we can get our batteries charging it will be interesting to see how high the voltage will climb and whether it will stabilise at a certain level or eventually fall. Gadget reports that he can 'fry' his batteries so it will be exciting to see if we can get as advanced as him.

Hoppy

Offline plengo

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2009, 07:48:17 PM »
@ Fausto

A possible problem I can see using two batteries in series, is that I have found that when there is a difference in voltage between the batteries, one can rise in potential during discharge. I'm not saying that this is happening in your case but it is possible.

I have now reduced my fan speed as much as possible whilst remaining stable and I will monitor this over the next few hours. If I detect a drop in voltage I will then reposition my magnet. I'm using a flat hard disk magnet as per Gadget's suggestion. Once we can get our batteries charging it will be interesting to see how high the voltage will climb and whether it will stabilise at a certain level or eventually fall. Gadget reports that he can 'fry' his batteries so it will be exciting to see if we can get as advanced as him.

Hoppy
I agree with you on the two battery case. I had that. My test is very simple. IF the voltage in one of the batteries, usually the smaller one, goes up and the other stays, it is a good sign but not necessarily the evidence YET. I wait a long time, usually about 4 hours, to see if they either stabilize or go up. IF go UP and the other stays, yeaaaaa, otherwise wait longer until you see that by the time running would be impossible not to have the voltage going down at 7ma. I roughly calculated that in 4 hours at 7ma at least the SLA should loose about 0.01v while the big battery does not change.

To both change I only need about 24 hours to loose 0.01v. That's is my way of knowing that guaranteed it is loosing power.

So, when I have my setup with 24v and a small SLA I will know very fast, in minutes, the direction of the setup.

It would be good if we could come up with a proof of concept that demonstrates what is happening here and be able to test faster.

Fausto.

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #160 on: February 25, 2009, 07:48:17 PM »
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Offline Hoppy

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #161 on: February 25, 2009, 08:36:50 PM »
I agree with you on the two battery case. I had that. My test is very simple. IF the voltage in one of the batteries, usually the smaller one, goes up and the other stays, it is a good sign but not necessarily the evidence YET. I wait a long time, usually about 4 hours, to see if they either stabilize or go up. IF go UP and the other stays, yeaaaaa, otherwise wait longer until you see that by the time running would be impossible not to have the voltage going down at 7ma. I roughly calculated that in 4 hours at 7ma at least the SLA should loose about 0.01v while the big battery does not change.

To both change I only need about 24 hours to loose 0.01v. That's is my way of knowing that guaranteed it is loosing power.

So, when I have my setup with 24v and a small SLA I will know very fast, in minutes, the direction of the setup.

It would be good if we could come up with a proof of concept that demonstrates what is happening here and be able to test faster.

Fausto.

Curiosity has got the better of me and I had to answer a question that had been bugging me for a while. I started the test at 22:30hrs on 23 Feb at an on-load voltage of 12.68V with the fan pulling 100mA. This current was stepped down in increments to 20mA where I terminated the test at 16:50hrs today. A total of 3.12A/hrs was extracted from my 20A/hr battery over the duration of the test. The final on-load voltage was 12.65V, so I was naturally curious about why the terminal voltage was not a lot lower than this. I therefore decided to terminate the test and run the motor at 300mA to see the effect on the battery. Within two minutes the battery voltage fell to 12.52V which is 0.13V lower than the on-load voltage at the start of the test. This of course does not in any way suggest that a gain had not been made over and above battery capacity but it is nevertheless interesting in that it shows that terminal voltage is a very bad indicator of battery state of charge at very low discharge currents, which makes it very difficult indeed to detect and quantify any genuine capacity gains that might be achieved using this particular 'feedback to source' test setup.

Hoppy

Offline plengo

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #162 on: February 25, 2009, 09:52:46 PM »
Curiosity has got the better of me and I had to answer a question that had been bugging me for a while. I started the test at 22:30hrs on 23 Feb at an on-load voltage of 12.68V with the fan pulling 100mA. This current was stepped down in increments to 20mA where I terminated the test at 16:50hrs today. A total of 3.12A/hrs was extracted from my 20A/hr battery over the duration of the test. The final on-load voltage was 12.65V, so I was naturally curious about why the terminal voltage was not a lot lower than this. I therefore decided to terminate the test and run the motor at 300mA to see the effect on the battery. Within two minutes the battery voltage fell to 12.52V which is 0.13V lower than the on-load voltage at the start of the test. This of course does not in any way suggest that a gain had not been made over and above battery capacity but it is nevertheless interesting in that it shows that terminal voltage is a very bad indicator of battery state of charge at very low discharge currents, which makes it very difficult indeed to detect and quantify any genuine capacity gains that might be achieved using this particular 'feedback to source' test setup.

Hoppy

Excellent point Hoppy. This is a very good insight of yours. When I did my over 200 load tests on my SSG i noticed that the battery will have a "curve" that is very peculiar to its load rate (what we call C10, C20, C??). Higher load rates the slope of the curve is higher, lower the load, smaller the slope. Also the curve is in the shape of stairs going down (see the picture). In any case the slope will be there no matter how light the load may be, even on as little as 7ma, but still be there. What will change will be the stair dimension and how long you will be in a certain "step". I even notice sometimes that the voltage can go up but not much while under load, but always in the end of a long run it will go down.

So voltage will not be a very good demonstration of the state of the charge but will definetely tell you where it will not be. In my case this battery of mine is a "baby" because I already know how she reacts to different loads and times because of the shear amount of tests I did on her. So for me she tells me a lot when the voltage changes at a certain rate at the voltage level she is sitting now, around 12 volts.

In the picture you will see different load rates and curves to demonstrate my point. Those curves are not real, real but they are very close to some of my load tests that I still have the data. They resemble a lot my real physical data.

You CAN know where you are on the battery by how it is behaving in voltage fluctuations while you are running the system for a while. You CAN know if you are on the "plataform" or on the "curve of the step" and even know the rate she will fall if you know your battery.

Fausto.

Offline Hoppy

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #163 on: February 25, 2009, 11:18:31 PM »
@ Fausto

Yes, I call this layering and I too have seen this whilst spending too many hours load testing SG's. Its not so apparent when conventional DC charging. I tend to think its bad cell balance as a result of uneven desulfation during repeated shallow load test cycling. Anyway whetever its real cause its good that it provides you with a reference to which you can measure and interpret voltage variations more accurately. I'm continually learning more about batteries and they are complicated beasts, almost living entities with their own personalities!

Hoppy

Offline plengo

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #164 on: February 25, 2009, 11:31:59 PM »
@ Fausto

Yes, I call this layering and I too have seen this whilst spending too many hours load testing SG's. Its not so apparent when conventional DC charging. I tend to think its bad cell balance as a result of uneven desulfation during repeated shallow load test cycling. Anyway whetever its real cause its good that it provides you with a reference to which you can measure and interpret voltage variations more accurately. I'm continually learning more about batteries and they are complicated beasts, almost living entities with their own personalities!

Hoppy

In the end I am totally with you Hoppy. They are indeed a living thing with their behavior.

Off course I will only really say that this Fan circuit is really working "after" I have this tested under many different batteries and not ghost voltage as a result, if this really charges the batteries to voltages way higher than when it started, more like from 12v to 13.65v or 14v than I will really believe it myself, backed up by evidence that would be undeniable.

For now, all I can do is test this little mysterious design over and over and over and over again with the best tools that I have at hand.

Fausto.

 

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