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Author Topic: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!  (Read 181216 times)

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #270 on: March 09, 2009, 06:13:37 AM »
Hi,

The circuit has run all night and the battery voltage has not gained, it is still 10,34 volt.

The neon bulb is still glowing dim, indicating that the circuit runs. My best estimate
is that this circuit uses very little current from the battery and that the high voltage
spikes do remove sulfate from the battery lead plates. I will let the circuit run for 10
more hours. Then I will test the circuit on a small 120mA 9 volt NiCad battery.

Groundloop.

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #270 on: March 09, 2009, 06:13:37 AM »

Offline AbbaRue

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #271 on: March 09, 2009, 06:55:28 AM »
I'm a little puzzled.
What purpose is there for using multiple diodes in series?
All I can think of is the voltage drop they produce is needed for some purpose. 
Unless they are functioning as a diode detector picking up radio waves from the atmosphere.
I found that the more diodes you connect in series as a detector the higher the voltage you get to a maximum point.

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #272 on: March 09, 2009, 07:41:16 AM »
@AbbaRue,

The purpose is to get a lower voltage on the transistor collector. Another purpose is to adjust the amount
of back feeding to battery vs sourcing from battery. If I connect the battery higher up on the diode chain
then I get higher voltage on the circuit but less charge back from the circuit. Chaining diodes is like using
a zener.

Groundloop.

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #272 on: March 09, 2009, 07:41:16 AM »
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Offline robbie47

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #273 on: March 09, 2009, 12:00:51 PM »
Deleted

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #274 on: March 09, 2009, 01:59:39 PM »
@robbie47,

I saw your drawing before you deleted it. You probably realized that the battery must be in parallel with the coil
to get charged. In my emitter following circuit I have managed to get the polarity right so that the battery is in
parallel (not counting the diodes) with both the coil and the circuit. That way the sharp negative voltage pulse
in the coil can enter the minus terminal of the battery and charge the battery between the power (timing) pulses
to the transistor. So we get one power pulse, one charging pulse, one power pulse etc. It is NOT possible to
both charge and discharge a battery at the same time. It IS possible to first extract a power pulse and then
insert a charging pulse when they are separated in time. This is one goal with my circuit. The other goal was
to mix a DC component with a AC component inside the coil to convert apparent power to real power. We know
that in a LC circuit the voltage and current is 90 degrees out of faze. Thus the real power in null when the voltage
or the current is at maximum. What happens when a DC current is flowing out of faze with the AC voltage?

Groundloop.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #274 on: March 09, 2009, 01:59:39 PM »
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Offline robbie47

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #275 on: March 09, 2009, 02:58:59 PM »
@groundloop,
Sorry about the confusion with my alternative drawing.
Indeed I realized that my suggested circuit would not work, since back EMF would be diverted into the coils other end as well.
I understand your motives on your circuit, however I am still not happy with the negative pulse on the emitter, because that will not cause the battery to charge.

And, indeed as you indicated, charging and discharging will not work at the same time, although I still think that it will always be sequential when using switched coils:
First you charge the coil with current (discharging the battery).
Then switch off charging the coil (and thus stopping the discharging of the battery). Switching off coil charging will always cause high voltage at that very moment if current can not continue to flow ( this is the back EMF). This high voltage can drive charging the battery again.
But indeed, voltage and current are out of phase. Good point. I have no answer to your question however.....

I'll keep trying to find new suggestions for your circuit. It is an intriguing one  ;)

Just for the other forum readers, I attached the erroneous circuit that I planned to suggest but deleted earlier. Once more: it will not work as intended, although it will give a positive back EMF pulse on the collector of the transistor.

Maybe I will give it a try, because back EMF is a very steep pulse that will not be returning current to the same coil as easy as charging the battery (this is actually a capacitor)
Steep pulses contain much high frequency components (according to Fourier).
Coil impedance is high for high frequencies (Z = j * 2 * pi  * f * L),
while battery impedance will be low for high frequencies (Z = 1/ (j * 2 *pi * f * C)), where L = coil value in Henry and C = capacity in Farad)

Would be good to know how big the capacity value of such a lead acid batter is. I would not be surprised if it is a few Farads
Your coils will probably have values in the range of micro Henry's. So, the question is how big would the impedance of the coil be in relation to the impedance of the battery in case of a sharp back EMF pulse period.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 10:12:01 PM by robbie47 »

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #276 on: March 09, 2009, 04:48:59 PM »
@robbie47,

>>I understand your motives on your circuit, however I am still not happy with the >>negative pulse on the emitter, because that will not cause the battery to charge.

I agree with you. There should be no charging by the negative pulse but since
this is an oscillator the positive going pulse will charge. This can be seen by
the scope image. Now since we allow the negative to freely swing down to -65
volt or so, then we must assume that the positive pulse will do the same.
But we use a diode to the battery so half of the source dipole is back in the battery.

Now if we could use a little of the negative pulse to charge then maybe we can
get this circuit go o/u?

Groundloop.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #276 on: March 09, 2009, 04:48:59 PM »
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Offline robbie47

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #277 on: March 09, 2009, 06:58:43 PM »
@groundloop:
Quote
Now if we could use a little of the negative pulse to charge then maybe we can
get this circuit go o/u?

I only can think of one way at this moment: using a second battery.
But that would be off topic  :-\ and back to real Bedini setups.

The strength of your setup is in the rotor however to my opinion. It acts as a magnetic bridge.
Something is happening there that is not quite understood, at least not by me.

Offline AbbaRue

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #278 on: March 09, 2009, 09:50:06 PM »
@Groundloop
Thanks for the reply. So my first assumption was correct.
The diodes in series lower the voltage draw from the battery.

I think I understand how a Bedini motor functions. 
About a year ago I was contemplating the following concept: (I will condense it as much as possible to get the point across)
If you energize an air core coil near a magnet with the proper polarity, the coil will attract the magnet.
If the magnet is allowed to move, as it moves towards the coil it's magnetic field will cross the windings of the coil.
As the coil cuts the magnets lines of force a current is induced in the coil.
The closer the magnet gets to the coil the greater the current flow that is induced. (A simple generator)
Also the closer the magnet and coil get the greater the magnetic attraction between them.(Acceleration takes place)
So the two forces work together and an increase in energy should be the result.
Then if you cut power at the right moment a back emf is produced which will repel the magnet away from the coil.
All that is needed for this to work is a means of allowing the magnet to move to and from the coil freely.
This condition is met by placing the magnet on a rotating disk.  Thus the Bedini motor is born.

Of coarse you don't need an air core coil for this to work, I just mentioned it to make the point that the magnet is
attracted only by the coils magnetic field and not by the iron core.

Addendum:
The second winding on the core causes a current to flow to the base of the transistor as the magnet approaches the  coil. (turning it on)
And then once the magnet passes it's closest point to the coil and starts moving away this causes the current to flow
in the opposite direction which turns the transistor off and causes it to switch to the opposite direction as well.
So in theory the second winding that goes to the transistor base shouldn't need to be as many windings.
Only enough windings to switch the transistor. 
But that second winding works best if it is placed on the same core so it switches exactly at the closest point of the magnet and coil.
If is is wound separately then fine tuning would be needed to get the timing right.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2009, 10:34:27 PM by AbbaRue »

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #278 on: March 09, 2009, 09:50:06 PM »
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Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #279 on: March 10, 2009, 04:39:37 AM »
Hi,

I have run a test with the motor (rotor stopped) in solid state mode with
a 9 volt 160mA Nicad battery. The start voltage on the small battery
was 7,50 volt. Now, 5 hours later, the battery has drained down to 6,05 volt.
This confirms that the circuit itself is under unity. The voltage gain I noticed
when using a lead acid battery is probably due to the battery going through
a process of eliminating sulphur buildup on the battery plates.

Groundloop.

Offline robbie47

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #280 on: March 10, 2009, 09:18:54 AM »
@groundloop,
Thanks for sharing that with us.
You might be right about the lead acid battery and its actual state.
Any plans for next steps?

I studied you circuit once more. One thing that strikes me is that once the transistor is switched on, either the 9 diodes or the transistor will consume something like 80 mA * 6.3 volts = 0.504 Watts, which is quite much.
I say either the transistor because if you can switch it on without having the collector current saturated. The collector - emitter voltage can be about 6 volts, so in that case you actually don't need the 9 diodes. In that case the resistor to the base of the transistor needs to be fairly high and the collector current would be less than 80 mA.

Did you run the circuit without the 9 diodes, or would that consume to much power in the coil?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:41:44 AM by robbie47 »

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #280 on: March 10, 2009, 09:18:54 AM »
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Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #281 on: March 10, 2009, 10:23:41 AM »
@robbie47,

Your math must be wrong?

The circuit uses less than 10mA at 10 volt without the diodes running as a motor at high speed,
and less than 1mA at 10 volt without the diodes when running in solid state. Remember that
I ran the circuit in solid state (stopped rotor) from a drained 9 volt (160mA) battery. The start
voltage was 7,50 volt, and 5 hours later, the battery was drained down to 6,05 volt. A fully loaded
battery of that type should hold (8,4 V * 0,16) 1,34 Watt/h.

>>Any plans for next steps?

Yes. I will make two new single air core coils for a solid state oscillator. (No rotor or metal objects).
Then I will put the coils vertically with a distance between coils as per. Helmholtz.

Groundloop.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 01:05:26 PM by Groundloop »

Offline robbie47

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #282 on: March 10, 2009, 11:43:30 AM »
@groundloop,
Sorry, I did not express myself sufficient careful.
The power consumption that I calculated is only occurring at the moments the transistor is switched on.
To get the average power consumption we have to divide it with the duty cycle factor.
We should be able to derive that from your oscilloscoop picture.

Remark on the 9 V battery: you meant 1.34 W/hour of course  ;)

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #283 on: March 10, 2009, 02:51:11 PM »
Hi,

Here is my Helmholtz Coils Oscillator battery charger.

Adjusted, the circuit uses 0,1 amp.at 12,00 volt from the lab supply.

I have two 12 volt 7 Amp. GEL batteries in parallel on the output.
Both batteries is charging well. Started out as 10,5 volt but has gained voltage up to 11,24 volt
in half an hour charging. The coils and transistor runs very cool. No heating in the circuit.

Now it is exciting to see how long it takes to fully charge both batteries.

Groundloop.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 03:12:40 PM by Groundloop »

Offline AbbaRue

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Re: Fusionchip's Bedini Feedback to Source!!!
« Reply #284 on: March 10, 2009, 04:01:43 PM »
I used to make my own sinkers out of lead. 
It is easy to melt with a propane torch, just use an old sardine can.
Then once you have melted the lead, pour it onto a flat surface to make thin sheets of it.
Then the sheets can be cut into small square lead plates.
Sulphuric acid is sold in hardware stores as drain cleaner.
Take the lead plates and seperate them with some fiberglass cloth and add water and acid.
That is how you can make your own small lead acid batteries.
This would prove the validity of the battery being charged.
A large lead acid battery holds so much charge that it makes it difficult to prove it is being charged.
So you need a very small amp hour battery.

 

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