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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: gigawattgratis on December 31, 2008, 11:55:18 PM
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I've seen in the market a power saver can save 100% of the electrical Bill, once the device is connected to the power grid the electrical meter spin backwards if mechannical or negative indication if electronic, the web site of the company sell this device show demonstrative videos of its product:
http://www.boondee.net/electric-power-saver/b4-88.html
Some countries have considerated this product not legal and is not allowed this device incomed to that countries, so for know the true about this I have the following questions:
* Someone has buyed this device?
* Really uses a free energy principle for return power to the power grid and save 100% of the electrical bill?
Good bye
Giga
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Do you know how it cost?
It something I will need when I will move on my first house in 6 month :)
I don't think its free energy but more a trick to hack the meter.
Nice finding :)
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It's a little black box with capacitors in it. All it does is change the power factor so that the meter reads less than what you are actually using. I would think that the hydro supplier will frown on this.
I am sure someone on this site is more qualified to discuss this unit. If you could calculate what capacitance you could use to slow down the meter, you might get away with it. To make the meter turn backwards would not be a very good idea.
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I don't know what country's use meters like that but that wire would burn up in a second if you ran a 220v 150 amp service through it. If you saw my power bill you'd know how much I wish it was true but I really doubt it could work.
Pete
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This are very old knowledges.
Used in Germany 1930 to 40
(forbitten)
Also used later in East Germany
But shure , this is an illegar robbery
and forbitten in all countries
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I want an opinion based in more real facts, that is say a person buyed this device and doing some testings conclude if the device was using free energy methods or if is a not legal system.
Common tricks are working with mechannical energy meters, but not with electronic meters and if you see the web site they claim its device is working with electronic energy meters, so if some one wants to be sure if there is free energy in the device using oscilloscope or other real time power and energy measurements be sure if this device is a free energy circuit returning to the power grid energy excess. In this overunity.com web site is shown a wide number of circuits can get free energy or get power gain, and some times is more practical power this circuits from the power grid than other power source, in fact some circuits based in parametric energy or spark gaps retun power to the power grid and at the same time the load is powered
Other point here is than the company sell this device stays this device is not for home use, is only a demonstrative kit for proof the basical principle are using other power savers they sell and get a real and high saving rating
Bye
Giga
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Hopefully this Saver is not just "Energy Stealing Measure" :-\
But what is this:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Boondee_Electron_Generator
regards,
HNY
khabe
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Another similar product: http://plugandsave.com/
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This mashine is NOT 100% save Enery.
This is turning BACKWARDS your used power.
So it is an 200% effecty device.
That is shiting the the the electricity works,
because you must becoming money back
for the USED power.
This is shure not allowed in any country of the world.,
so it is better to be quiet .
This way is technical long possibel
(i know this from my father and grandfather,
that was both self sustaining EE.
(and dont used there knowledges, because that is an crime,
thath will punished in any way.. If you buy this, you can be shure
that the sellings from this company will be controlled to find all
customers and users. Some years ago, things like that was happened in germany, wil an big company here that sells illegar electronic producs.
I hope that no one of the OU-members will try this longer to have this device
that is ony to use for "robbery"
G.P.
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if it workes it workes if your on the grid it is illegal if your off the grid it isn't so what are you looking for power or bills if you want bills then follow the rules is that not the agreement we make with the power companies to use there power if you don't use there power then you are not bound by there rules so whats the problem.
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if it workes it workes if your on the grid it is illegal if your off the grid it isn't so what are you looking for power or bills if you want bills then follow the rules is that not the agreement we make with the power companies to use there power if you don't use there power then you are not bound by there rules so whats the problem.
The normal Power saver is legat
it save 15% to 45% depend of the load.
ohmic , or inductive load .
Full effect you find at different motors , coolers , heating pumps,
and all that in it are used transformers.
This is an old good know technique.
BUT this apparatus , that let turn your counter (analog and digital)
backwards m that is 200% shiting and robbery your eleectricity supplier.
THAT is goodknow illegal. (In all countries punished by law).
Gustav Pese
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The link I posted are legal, its does not turn the meter backward, its just a capacitor technique.
I was wondering what is the exact circuit for that, since they sell the unit at high price, I believe making one should cost at around 20$ :)
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Another similar product: http://plugandsave.com/
Yes this is the same
but you mus under stand : UP TO 45% !
All others isnt´true.
Technical Description how it work is very well.
GP
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Yes, like Pese and others said, "fiddling" with el. energy consumption meters is equal to stealing. Period.
A robbery, if you like...
It is illegal action, and severely (!!!) prosecuted in most of the countries.
This "Bondee B4-88 Power saver" probably works as claimed (reducing your energy bill for a period of time). ;)
Again, like Pese said, this is as old as the billing of the energy consumption.
"ELECTRIC METERS MOVES BACKWARD!"
Lol, it means your "house" is acting like an energy producer/source (not consumer)... In a month or two, you'll know ALL the consequences...Not just the "I got Free electricity" part.....
You know, el.power companies are not stupid. They can add 1+1=2. All the losses are known, and backed up with nowadays computer (and a state of the art measuring) technology (power transportation/delivery/usage/losses/bills), it's not very hard to establish an "above normal leaky" grid....
"Made in Thailand" (sold worldwide)... Yes, I'd say this "method" still works nicely in some countries...
Messing with power-factor circuits (the tips and tricks) is just one of the more "profound" methods...
Of course, it's up to you to decide what your moral standards really are.
Any capable electrician knows many ways how to "cheat" electrical companies... In many ways...
I'd say there is a certain (small!) percentage of people who are doing it right now... (Who knows how many people were doing it in the past?)
Eventually, somebody has to pay for the goods. And the power companies ARE The Business...
Any losses (recognised or not) will be - eventually - paid by the consumers....
Normally, all the small "cheaters" are usually "sponsored" by the rest of the good people paying the electricity bills...
Cheers!
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Is not my intention a member of this community buy an illegal device, all contrary, if the device is using a free energy principle, then it will be honest, the viewpoint of connect that free energy device to the power grid is other theme, but I can see here is not people of scientific spirit, is only using its imagination without test in the laboratory this energy saver for get a more serious conclusion. Only a member here propose as method used for this device an electron multiplier device created for the same company
In this web site is commented too many free energy devices, and all can be plugged to the power grid, for example, the Tom Bearden MEG, that device as too many free energy devices, needs an external power source, as a battery for start working, but in way of batteries we can plug it to the power grid and replace batteries by rectifiers, in example, let's assign a COP=3 for this device, then, if the load is of 3 KW then the power grid will see only 1 KW and the electrical bill is reduced to 1/3, the meter is not spinning backwards , only spin or indicate less than real power in the load. People here claim it is not legal, then here is a main question.
All free energy device connected to the power grid will be illegal? ( For example Rotovertex )
Is that the future of all free energy device plugged to the power grid?
Bye.
Giga
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Is not my intention a member of this community buy an illegal device, all contrary, if the device is using a free energy principle, then it will be honest, the viewpoint of connect that free energy device to the power grid is other theme, but I can see here is not people of scientific spirit, is only using its imagination without test in the laboratory this energy saver for get a more serious conclusion. Only a member here propose as method used for this device an electron multiplier device created for the same company
In this web site is commented too many free energy devices, and all can be plugged to the power grid, for example, the Tom Bearden MEG, that device as too many free energy devices, needs an external power source, as a battery for start working, but in way of batteries we can plug it to the power grid and replace batteries by rectifiers, in example, let's assign a COP=3 for this device, then, if the load is of 3 KW then the power grid will see only 1 KW and the electrical bill is reduced to 1/3, the meter is not spinning backwards , only spin or indicate less than real power in the load. People here claim it is not legal, then here is a main question.
All free energy device connected to the power grid will be illegal? ( For example Rotovertex )
Is that the future of all free energy device plugged to the power grid?
Bye.
Giga
Hey, with all due respect, you are complaining no one is giving you scientific test results? Pese, and many others, have responded in very intelligent, scientific ways that I understood completely. Tests? Are you actually serious? The only way for this to work is if your house is a generator, right? So, unless your house is a generator, then it can't work and it IS stealing. If this device created, or transformed, enough energy to run your home then you would not need the power company. But, it does not, so you do.
I know of at least 3 different ways to slow down, stop, or make a meter (here in the US) go backward. All 3 of them are stealing. (Just for the record, I have never done these things but have seen them work with other who have) I am not blaming you for looking for and wanted cheaper bills, hey, we all want that. but, like someone once said, if it looks too good to be true, is usually is.
Please don't take any of this the wrong way. I read this topic hoping too that maybe there was a device that would actually cut down the bills at bit by switching on and off (like pese said) large motors like fridge, heat and air pumps, etc. which would be legal and morally acceptable as you actually use less power. Thanks.
Bill
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What a surprise! A new poster who can barely speak English pimping a Thai website selling dubious power devices!
I note that both the Boondee website and Plugandsave.com are from Thailand. The Las Vegas address is just a mailing service.
Will wonders never cease? ::)
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I posted the plugandsave and this one is legal....
For the other I dont know but I would like to understand how it work.
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What I'm getting is that member gigawattgratis posted the device for exploration of its nature...in the event the device has some technology that could be used in a free energy device.
Regards...
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What I'm getting is that member gigawattgratis posted the device for exploration of its nature...in the event the device has some technology that could be used in a free energy device.
Regards...
This is the exact Point!
There is no offer for crime actions.
@Cap
what happend to the friction heater?
any news?
helmut
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An EASY way to test a device like this for free energy technology would be to connect it
to an inverter and try running something off the inverter that would normally exceed the output.
If a 300 watt inverter can run a 1000 watt heater or hair dry then we have something here.
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Yes, like Pese and others said, "fiddling" with el. energy consumption meters is equal to stealing. Period.
A robbery, if you like...
It is illegal action, and severely (!!!) prosecuted in most of the countries.
This "Bondee B4-88 Power saver" probably works as claimed (reducing your energy bill for a period of time). ;)
Again, like Pese said, this is as old as the billing of the energy consumption.
"ELECTRIC METERS MOVES BACKWARD!"
Lol, it means your "house" is acting like an energy producer/source (not consumer)... In a month or two, you'll know ALL the consequences...Not just the "I got Free electricity" part.....
You know, el.power companies are not stupid. They can add 1+1=2. All the losses are known, and backed up with nowadays computer (and a state of the art measuring) technology (power transportation/delivery/usage/losses/bills), it's not very hard to establish an "above normal leaky" grid....
"Made in Thailand" (sold worldwide)... Yes, I'd say this "method" still works nicely in some countries...
Messing with power-factor circuits (the tips and tricks) is just one of the more "profound" methods...
Of course, it's up to you to decide what your moral standards really are.
Any capable electrician knows many ways how to "cheat" electrical companies... In many ways...
I'd say there is a certain (small!) percentage of people who are doing it right now... (Who knows how many people were doing it in the past?)
Eventually, somebody has to pay for the goods. And the power companies ARE The Business...
Any losses (recognised or not) will be - eventually - paid by the consumers....
Normally, all the small "cheaters" are usually "sponsored" by the rest of the good people paying the electricity bills...
Cheers!
@Spinner
It is not that easy as you like to describe it.
It isf Fact, that if you employ a Capacitor in a circuit(Grid), it affects all the Net.
So the meters are adjustet for the standart situation.(optimal grid)
If the energy supplier made changes in his Grid, it affects all consumers on the line.
Not to much, but in a notable way.
The same effect happend, when a consumer connected devices on the grid.
helmut
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What I'm getting is that member gigawattgratis posted the device for exploration of its nature...in the event the device has some technology that could be used in a free energy device.
What I'm getting is that gigawattgratis posted just to pimp their website and try to sell some devices to suckers.
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the problem here really seems to be an economic problem the grid costs a sertaint amount to build and maintain so since power companies sell amps they need to get a certain amount of money for each amp they sell in order to maintain there grid with more and more energy efficient products for sale the amount of amps they sell goes down and so they raise there rates in order to maintain the systemdriving higher and higher bills for those not buying more energy efficient products .
lets just say you come up with a free energy device and so how much energy you need becomes irrelavent then you would not need led lighting because the expence would not be worth it to you unless you had a small system and the cost of upgrading it would be more than the cost of the led lights you would now be making the same decision as most power companies make each and every day and theft of the system on either parties part is not to anyones benefit.
as to learning some things about energy from these devices that may be possible and worthwhile as some believe so this may be worth looking into as long as one does not cheat or steal from others the inverter system that was suggested seems to be a valed approach and could be worth the undertaking.
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G'day all,
The device marketed by these crooks in Thailand is not new. It was invented just after the war in Germany and there were about 10.000 of these gadgets in existence until the authorities clamped down on the scam. The device was known as "Kleiner Gustav" (little Gustav). It was, as the device from Thailand is, a device that fraudulently manipulates the meter.
See: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=post;topic=6443.20;num_replies=23
Hans von Lieven
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I can't remember where I read it but those meters themselves were purported to have energy accelerating properties.
So, who knows what could result from combining the two devices ?
You just never know, is all I'm saying.
Regards...
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I can't remember where I read it but those meters themselves were purported to have energy accelerating properties.
So, who knows what could result from combining the two devices ?
You just never know, is all I'm saying.
Regards...
@Cap @Hans
Lets do some analysis to see the facts.
Lets assume, one have a small Heater for the bedroom.
Tle label shows. 220V, 55Ohm for the value of the resistor.
Fact is: the Resistor does in a normal environment NOT change his properties.
If the Heater is connectet to the Grid, he takes P=U*I 880Watt
I=U/R 220/55 = 4 Amps The Power of 880W/h will be charged on your bill.
Now the situation changes without you know.(perhaps)
The Energy supplier encreases the Voltage in his Grid to about 250Volt.
Your Heater in the Bedroom and other Resistors on the Net behave as usual.
But this causes different effects.
Now I=U/R is 250/55= 4,563 Amps And the Heater reacts with more Power.
P=U*I = 250 * 4,563 = 1140,75 Watt
What does it mean?
The charge on your Bill encreases by more or less 22%
Without you notest.
"Start of the joke"
So in this case it might be of use to have a small resistor in spare 16Ohm might be fine,
but this must be able to carry the load of 1140Watt.
"End of joke"
Result:
Actions on both sides of the Meter effects the other side.
helmut
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Helmut,
no , is not joke.
You cant not use this as saver at resistance load,
that is true , but manufacturer is (woll not?) not saying this
You can TRUE save on inductive load.
motors, pumps, heatpumps frigidaires and so on.
BECAUSE (you save not - BUT- the counter count to much, because
the phase schiftings that you produce with the inductive loads.
HIS WILL BE COMPENSATED TO TRUE VALUES, so so "shit" not your electrici suppliers.
BU you ship him if you have to much uncompensated Fluarescent light tube
in use. Becaus each lamp that is driven without "compensating" Cap. , count
to thes at your counter. So the Electricity supplier ask you to compensate such loads
with compensating capacitors ( that is in pricipe only al capacity resistors as an LOAD that your counter turne quicker.
So that is it, i hop that some reader will now understand more from this pricipe ,
that is wellknow, since Tesla/Westinghouse
Gustav Pese
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Pese,
Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?
DrSpark
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Pese,
Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?
DrSpark
I say, if you use this thinggs wothout compensation: you counter counts mor KW that you using.
No electricity seller, give (without asking them) information that iz is better FOR YOU to comensating this .
The are only alsin YOU : If you have to much CAPAVITANCE load, becaouse you have mor Energy that you counter shown it
Gustav Pese
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Yep, Pese is right.
Pese,
Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?
DrSpark
No, DrSpark, the opposite - using a valid (and legal) "Power Factor (PF) Correction" (PFC) system would cause your meter to spin "slower", and your costs would be less (for what you really get)...
I think you already knew that, huh?
Anyway, many PFC methods are a very good thing (and legal!) - for both the customer and supplier (hmm?! ;)), because (as already mentioned) the Power Company charges you for "Watts" while your appliances are (in reality!) consuming "Volt Amperes" Reactive (due to a phase shift caused by any non pure ohmic load)...
So, a compensated el. grid consumption (approaching a PF=1) means lower bill for the consumer, and less load (lower peaks, costs for grid maintenance, ..) for the supplier.
Although you may have noticed that power supply companies are not exactly very enthusiastic to teach people how to pay less... ;D >:(
If you use devices with rather low PF (e.g. less than 0,9) (any inductive/capacitive loads like motors (el. tools, ventilators, pumps, .. ), tiny transformers, switcher supplies, mobile phone chargers, electronic lamps, etc, etc..), you'll actually pay more for the electricity!
Why? Low PF device draws more current (uses more "real Watts") for equal performance as would a successfully compensated device. Or, it will perform worse under the same power conditions...
And who is paying the difference for that "apparent", not very usefull power (energy) difference - losses?
The consumers, of course! You see, the Company will get the money from you anyway...No matter how screwed your grid / appliances really are... You'll pay. That's how it is for the last +100 years..
Industrial consumers (big power demands / large electricity bills) usually have their own "power factor compensation systems". (beside other "specialties", they have meters installed for both the Real (W) and reactive power (VAr).) They want the "VAr" meter to be as low as possible every month...
It is in their direct interest to minimize el.energy expenses as much as they can!
OK, we "the small consumers" would like to lower our el. bills, too! And yes, there is a way (there are actually many ways (like instant success of replacing the "old" lighting tech with a novel, power saver type, ...) - which nowadays many of the people are aware of.., but here we are talking about less obvious (I'd say one of the less known) method as a possibility to further reduce our el. energy expenses)..
There are ways (PFC devices) which helps us to do that, but they're usually rather expensive (you must consider that such devices must "be blessed" with many different certificates (even from your energy supplier), and usually have to be installed by a qualified personnel/organisation...)... So, it's a decision, a balance between a high cost (for a legally purchased & installed device) and a cumulative savings... It may take 20 years before such device would start to bring you the results... (think about a solar panel systems- how long it takes before they actually starts to bring you a real "profit"..?)...
But I think this may change in the (very) near future. After all, we are not just searching for "new energy", etc.. We should do our best to reduce even the current use of *available* energy...
Depends of what your average el. consumption (and how "reactive") really is, it would be realistic to expect maybe a 5-10% savings with a PFC system (for average users (imagine how many houses/flats there is...! A BIG opportunity for all the people...), but if you run a business with many el. driven machinery, your savings can become very obvious !). Yes, possibly (or "maybe") even some 40%! That's really something, no?
But certainly not a 100%. (lol) Or, (!!!), making your meter to "spin backwards" (>100%!)...
That's why the device presented in this thread ("Bondee") is suspicious! (and as far as I know, illegal in most of the countries )
If the device is able to make your meter to "spin backwards", it is definitely "messing" with the metering principles.
And, it is not a result of ANY KIND OF "FREE" ENERGY.
Cheers!
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Pese,
Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?
DrSpark
@Dr Spark
Tere is no need to correct the power factor on each inductive load.
The best place to correct the Powerfactor is right behind the first Line-switch after the meter/counter.
Then all consumers are on a optimised Line.
helmut
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Pese,
Thank you, for making that clearer. For a night I wondered if I had learned that wrong.
Helmut,
There are many inductive loads here. To correct PF at the fuse box would require some smarts(cpu) and the ability to change capacitance in real time. Not impossible to do, just more difficult and expensive.. Or a large variable capacitor that is servo controlled.
Group,
I purchased one of these little meters that count cost and display many things about the device plugged into it. Like cost, PF, Watts..
http://the-gadgeteer.com/review/kill_a_watt_ez_electricity_usage_monitor
for use correcting some of the larger loads in the home.
The meter says the CF (spiral cost saver bulbs) have about a .5 power factor, my guess is they cant fit the cap in there.
There could be a European version as constants in the calculator would only have to change from 120v/60hz to 220v/50hz.
DrSpark
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.....
Amen! ;D for the sake of clarity i went to check fridges at my shop.At all of them i found capacitors hanging next to the compressors(and i think they are there just to optimise power factor).So i think it is not so bad situation as u put it into the picture.Anyhow caps have quite big tolerances +/- 20% so i guess it is not so sweet and smooth optimisation afterall.
Also fans are without caps.
OK.we know the current situ,the method is well known to handle it.We have some electronic engenieers hanging around on this forum,and it seems no rocket technology.So...
Let us come with some schematics and test it out.It won't be expensive device anyhow.Besides we can make a big impact on our everyday bills and if it works well we will recommend it to all of our forum users and their friends and friends of friends.
We have a very good chance to actually make something and ease our everyday flustration with constant failures on our projects here :|
if we would like to make it a real cooperative project of OU,i started a new topic for it in a proper section of OU forum:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6487.0
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If government really wanted to make a big dent in the energy crisis, they could make it LAW that electricity suppliers meters correct the power factor or calculate the cost as such. Giving them(suppliers) a good reason to make all meters perform the correction.
DrSpark
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Government is not good in solving every person problems,nothing new in here.Let us make it by our self's,it fits into our paradigm.
I think we could stick to 80/20 rule and it would make a big progress already.We could connect it in one place ,make it adjustable to address the average situation at our home.So connect it once, adjust it once and forget it until u install some new ,big enough electric loads.
Another approach to connect the device per one line circuit.Some circuits will be stable(like lights in living room),some will have variable loads character like workshop.This approach looks more user friendly to me because almost everyone is affraid to work with elecricity.Best if we can come with a plug and play device,screwed in one of the light sockets or pluggable into outlet.
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Government is the only body that can MAKE Corporations do things they normally would never do.
Creativity, you are correct, for government to do it, to the utility companys there would probbably be a 20year clause for completion. And We can do it much faster than that, If all we did was *fix* the electric compressors like Pese and You suggested that would make a large difference here.
DrSpark.
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@drspark
can u repeat some of the PF tests on different electrical machines at ur house? we could gather some data and make a simulation of how much ur home would be able to save.This could help to make some interest in this topic, if we would put some real numbers into it!$ or € would be the best stimulant :D
im so pissed off now for my CFL's! and i thought it is so nice...
can u repeat this test with more CFL's in a circuit?just to see how it affect's to have a multipe interference in one circuit( ok it is not difficult to calculater either,just some inductive loads in parallel)
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Yes i will make many measurements again (did not log them) most things did not have any where near 1 for PF
Don't sweat to much the cfl's you are saving BUT seems is still a lie. saving not as much as claimed.
For those wanting to learn more here is a little power factor description and video of imhotep&shiva testing a couple of CFL with the same meter I have here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIyfYjoKc2k
Dave
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@ all!
the watt hour meter used for the home dose not measure volt amps, it measures true power. it dose not gain you anything to correct power facter unless you have an industrial situation. industry can be billed not only for kwhrs but also powerfacter and peak load. you are arguing about a nonexistent problem.
as for the power saver it looks a total scam to me. anyone know how it would work?
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as for the power saver it looks a total scam to me. anyone know how it would work?
G'day Fritz,
From the limited research I did I gather that the motor on the meter relies on the frequency of the AC supply ie. 50 or 60 Hertz.
The idea is to send an inverted frequency signal back into the meter and apparently that stuffs up the works. As to a circuit for such a device I don't have one. According to the German authorities the device was designed by the same men that at the time designed and built the meters for the power companies. Sort of like a lucrative little sideline. They would have known how to fool their own product.
Hans von Lieven
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Creativity,
Group,
I made some power measurements of things on around the house using my killawatt meter:
were supposed to be 120v @ 60hz
Blower on forced air, outside Wood burning stove/furnace.
123V, 2.35A, 153W, 290VA, 0.53PF
This Dual monitor computer, UPS, router, wireless radio and another computer CPU unit.
122.6V, 2.82A, 238W, 325VA, 0.69PF
Microwave Oven 1,1kw on hi cup of water inside.
119.8V, 11.77A, 1255W, 1400VA, 0.89PF
Christmas tree lights. incandescent lamps.
120V, 2.02A, 244W, 245VA, PF 1.0
Humidifier (portable)
122.4V, 0.16A, 11W, 19VA, 0.58PF
Large LCD TV, Satellite receiver dvr, DVD/VHS unit, alarm clock, Barn bug radio, all on UPS.
120.7, 2.17A, 243W, 263VA, 0.92PF
Phillips 13W CFL.
122.6V, 0.21A, 16W, 26VA, 0.62PF
CRT TV, volume set to max.
122.2V, 0.81A, 71W, 94VA, 0.73PF
Upright Freezer.
123.2V, 1.17A, 118W, 145VA, 0.81PF
Box window fan.
122.4V, 0.76A, 90W, 93VA, 0.95PF
All Tube oscilloscope.
122.2V, 2.62A, 300W, 320VA, 0.93PF
Most of the big things are wired in directly with no plug.
My wife wasn't doing laundry so i cant get data from those two machines.
DrSpark
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G'day Fritz,
From the limited research I did I gather that the motor on the meter relies on the frequency of the AC supply ie. 50 or 60 Hertz.
The idea is to send an inverted frequency signal back into the meter and apparently that stuffs up the works. As to a circuit for such a device I don't have one. According to the German authorities the device was designed by the same men that at the time designed and built the meters for the power companies. Sort of like a lucrative little sideline. They would have known how to fool their own product.
Hans von Lieven
hans that sounds like any grid tie inverter, the problem is it would take as much energy as the house was using. not to mention that grid ties have a lot of safety features to prevent islanding. the trick is to fool the meter not just pump power back to the grid. as i understand it there are 2 coils one for currant one for voltage and wheel speed of the meter is proportional to the in phase currant. very hard to fool.
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This is illegal info lol;
I suspect the motor in the meter can only accelerate within limits.
I think the cheat system draws huge amount of power in 1-4 cycles charging caps that then feed an inverter.
The huge pull can happen before the meter motor can respond correctly.. Resulting in fewer counts..
Please don't do this as it really is wrong and is not free nrg! Its not a solution to the problem only an increase in the problem.
DrSpark
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This is illegal info lol;
I suspect the motor in the meter can only accelerate within limits.
I think the cheat system draws huge amount of power in 1-4 cycles charging caps that then feed an inverter.
The huge pull can happen before the meter motor can respond correctly.. Resulting in fewer counts..
Please don't do this as it really is wrong and is not free nrg! Its not a solution to the problem only an increase in the problem.
DrSpark
i assume you mean quarter cycles. the meter is an electric motor moved by the inphase field of the current and voltage coils, any pulses too quick to give the wheel a push would be too high a frequency
to allow much current to flow through the inductance of the system. also in the fifties high power transistors did not exist so how would they work the trick? as for cheating the meter there are many legal ways to reduce your bill..
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G'day Fritz,
The system was originally not really designed to cheat power companies of funds, though it did that. The primary purpose was to dodge power rationing and avoid stiff fines for overuse. Remember this stuff surfaced in 1945.
Hans von Lieven
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@ Hans:
Great historical info....thanks.
Bill
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Creativity,
Group,
I made some power measurements of things on around the house using my killawatt meter:
were supposed to be 120v @ 60hz
Blower on forced air, outside Wood burning stove/furnace.
123V, 2.35A, 153W, 290VA, 0.53PF
This Dual monitor computer, UPS, router, wireless radio and another computer CPU unit.
122.6V, 2.82A, 238W, 325VA, 0.69PF
Microwave Oven 1,1kw on hi cup of water inside.
119.8V, 11.77A, 1255W, 1400VA, 0.89PF
Christmas tree lights. incandescent lamps.
120V, 2.02A, 244W, 245VA, PF 1.0
Humidifier (portable)
122.4V, 0.16A, 11W, 19VA, 0.58PF
Large LCD TV, Satellite receiver dvr, DVD/VHS unit, alarm clock, Barn bug radio, all on UPS.
120.7, 2.17A, 243W, 263VA, 0.92PF
Phillips 13W CFL.
122.6V, 0.21A, 16W, 26VA, 0.62PF
CRT TV, volume set to max.
122.2V, 0.81A, 71W, 94VA, 0.73PF
Upright Freezer.
123.2V, 1.17A, 118W, 145VA, 0.81PF
Box window fan.
122.4V, 0.76A, 90W, 93VA, 0.95PF
All Tube oscilloscope.
122.2V, 2.62A, 300W, 320VA, 0.93PF
Most of the big things are wired in directly with no plug.
My wife wasn't doing laundry so i cant get data from those two machines.
DrSpark
That is exactly what i have written to you,
now , take fluorrescent tube lamp- ) not electronic.
the old-one ,driven with an choke (copper at iron core).
possible the 230volt tubes (europe) make more
lesses than yours (US) on 120volts line.
BECAUSE the difference or the rearly working voltage
on an such lamp ist approx. only 95 volt.
the rest to the line voltage make high differences to the counter.
!
See that rearly ohmic load have phase differences 1 = zero.
Such loads connected over the power saver, aswell loads
with different PV will only dampimg the power daver.
Each inductive load must be separatly connected to his
own (opimized) saver to become the optimum avaiable PV=1
Now see that that lamps make (if uncompensated -without cap-)
make you wonder
Pese
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.... interesting side-effect of all of this FE-research.
Is it illegal to recycle?
how many of the PAYED electricity are you giving back to the grid FOR FREE?
the best ideas are flashing while i am in my bathroom. (because nobody disturbs me *gg*)
My water-bill is just about m3. so the pressure is free or already payed?
why not putting a tesla turbine or such into the water-system do drive a generator while any tap is used?
I know, my first post should look different,
but unfortunately reality is biting while researching on FE.
best,
sushimoto
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Boondee.net has a new resonance power supply:
http://www.boondeeworkshop.com/resonant.html
But to compensate all the power factors under 1
to 1 as some devices do is a very good thing also for the power
companies and should be done to save money for your electic bills !
I was shocked to hear that CFL bulbs only have a power factor
of less than 0.6 and thus don´t save money at all but just
waste lots of energy this way !
So it will be a very good way to sell power saving corrector boxes
that can be easily connected to your grid lines and will
save you real money.
As these boxes mostly contain just a few big caps
and some switching circuits, these should not be too expensive
and maybe we can develop something over here
in open source and make kits available.
I am planning to program into this domain an auction plugin or
shoping cart , so users can sell their hardware over here.
Regards, Stefan.
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I use the power saver 1200 and Dad got one as well . My light bill before was average 250-325 in the summer it went down to no bill over 65 dollars all summer long ! same so far in the winter although i suspect my bill to be a bit higher as it is colder than normal for us here .
dad has 4 freezers 2 refrigerators and and a ceiling fan in every room plus a water pump and ever bulb in the house is CFL now ,his bill decreased 45 % . It works and it works well . they are 299 free shipping . you have to put it on its own 220 breaker here in the US to cover the entire house . The Power saver 1200 works . It saves on anything Inductive including CFL , Motors and transformers . Pure resistive heat ,NO but one using a transformer yes .
Albert
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From what I read a while back, those spiral CFL's emit harmful radiation...and are more costly to run than regular bulbs.
It was discussed here a couple of times...can't recall a thread though...shouldn't be hard to locate the info on the net I would think.
Regards...
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Yes, CFLs are bad for your eyes and health.
They hurt your eyes and emit dangerous radiation and
now as we know the power factor is bad in them they don´t save any electricity !
Better skip them and go directly to the new
warm white light (~3500 Kelvin temperature) power LEDs.
They emit much better eye friendly light.
More compareable with the warm halogen light.
So don´t buy any CFLs or fluorescent tubes anymore cause they
also contain bad mercury gas, which is bad for the environment
and go directly to these new great PowerLEDs.
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@gadgetmall,
Are you running a/c in the summer as well? That is a huge savings, down to 65!
Mark
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Albert
quote:
Pure resistive heat ,NO but one using a transformer yes
------------------------------------
Transformer heater??
I'm all ears [If its cheaper than Oil heat]
BTW
Love your contributions
Chet
PS
Stephan do you have a source/link for this""PowerLEDs""
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A great new Power Saver is the one here at the border or footer ad.
This also gives you 300 US$ tax credit and it costs only 199 US$,
so you save double !
It works by reestablishing the power factor back to 1
when inductive loads
reduce your power factor to less than 1 on the AC system.
Just click the banner to get one.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
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@All
I find this thread simply amazing, LOL, here we have four pages of posts and nobody is wiling to state "what" power factor correction is nor "what" it does. We also have the critics who continually state their opinions as fact about things they obviously do not understand. Power Factor (PF) correction is not stealing nor tricking anyone nor anything it is simply a means to correct a power phase imbalance. Maybe we should start at the beginning--- and not the end of this process:).
A power company has AC (alternating current)generators and these generators move an electric current back and forth (a push then pull) in the conductors -- the current alternates! In a power plant we are continually correcting the voltage and current to match the customer load, we are also correcting the phase or power factor as different types of loads come on line -- Inductive, resistive and capacitive loads.
We can use a simple analogy here, if we have a mass bouncing up and down on a spring then the mass having inertia is like an inductance, the spring is resilient like capacitance and the air resistance is like electrical resistance. Now imagine this mass on a spring is bouncing up and down at 60Hz(cycles per second), if the spring and mass values are correct then a small external force (the generator) on the spring will keep the mass bouncing at 60Hz which is its natural frequency of oscillation. In this instance the generating force only needs to overcome the air resistance of the moving mass, if there is more air resistance then the generating force must increase to keep the mass oscillating at 60Hz. Now what if we added more mass (inductance)to the same spring value? Well the natural frequency of the system would be lowered and we would have to push and pull the spring harder and faster to maintain a frequency of 60Hz. This is what inductance does in the power line, it acts like a mass having inertia which wants to keep moving in one direction so we must reverse the applied force earlier (frequency)and we must push and pull harder because we are working against the inertia or inductance of the load -- not with it. Now instead of doing all this "extra" work to maintain our frequency of 60Hz why don't we just change the "stiffness" of the spring(capacitance) to compensate for the change in mass (inductance) in our system? If more mass is added why not just make the spring stiffer so the natural frequency is maintained at 60Hz without extra work? This is what the "magical" process of power factor correction is all about, they switch a capacitor into the circuit at the right times to compensate for changes in inductance exactly like we would change our spring stiffness to compensate for changes in mass. Now does this sound like something is being stolen? -- does it sound like we are trying to trick someone? No, this is just common sense and we are simply providing a means to increase efficiency. You see when we add an inductive load the system is now out of balance and by adding capacitance at the correct time we are simply restoring balance, it is no more complicated than that. Let's go back to our spring and mass for a second, did you notice that if we have to apply a force harder and faster to correct the system then we have done more measurable work at the source but this work does not show up at the mass load? Where or where has our work gone? It has gone into our spring of course which is moving faster and farther than it needs to generating losses due to friction, we could consider all this extra motion not required in a balanced system as heat losses.
Power Factor correction simply limits current flow due to induction with a capacitor which stores the energy as electrical energy in the capacitor. When the current reverses or alternates this energy in the capacitor now acts in series with the source to increase voltage thus current, it corrects the "time" at which current and voltage reach peak values limiting current flow so your electric meter runs slower --- because you are drawing "less current" not because you are stealing something.
Regards
AC
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Hi AC
I've been looking at these devices for a long time as I used to work in a factory where the electrician had installed one to correct the PF used on the motors...he had explained to me how it worked and everything but it's been over 30 years so I forgot a lot of the info...so thanks for the info you just posted....
However...there seems to be a lot of articles stating that these are a scam because home power is not billed the same as factories or businesses which use huge amounts of electricity....here's a link to one such article I was reading earlier...
http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2009/02/22/power-factor-correct.html
and
http://powerelectronics.com/power_management/motor_power_management/power-factor-correction-0507/
I wonder if you could take a look at the replies at the bottom of these articles, I'd be curious to see what you make of it all...it seems like the power companies don't charge consumers the same way so it seems like a waste of money according to some...here's one comment....
"Utilities bill on KWH which is real power used multiplied by time. Power factor correction can reduce amperage if you have a power factor less than 1, but it will not reduce the real power or the KWH, which is what you are billed for."
Anyways, just wondering if it's all on the level...
Thanks,
Paul
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@Goat
I wonder if you could take a look at the replies at the bottom of these articles, I'd be curious to see what you make of it all...it seems like the power companies don't charge consumers the same way so it seems like a waste of money according to some...here's one comment....
"Utilities bill on KWH which is real power used multiplied by time. Power factor
correction can reduce amperage if you have a power factor less than 1, but it will not reduce the real power or the KWH, which is what you are billed for."
That article and the comments were interesting but have you ever got the feeling most everyone is just repeating what they have read from a textbook as all the answers sound the same? The problem is that many times people substitute real understanding of a process with memorized terms and equations, that is they can repeat what they have read but they have not taken the time to really understand what is happening nor prove the matter for themselves. I would agree with the comment above however reactive power does produce heat losses in the load which is real power we are billed for. Therefore power factor correction which reduces the reactive power in circulation does matter as it effects efficiency. I am sure we can all understand how much real power is consumed by even a small heating element, so why turn all our conductors and inductors into space heaters?
Regards
AC
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Allcanadian,
please help, I'm starting to understand what we need to know and what is important. Real understanding from the beginning to the end of current flow and magnetic flux flow.
Can you describe how LC oscillator is working , where is electric current flow ,where magnetic and IN WHICH PART of oscillation cycle ? I mean , there is for example starting 1/4 of the resonant wave - where is the electric energy now,where is current, where is magnetic field flux .
I realize clearly that LC electric circuit is like a pendulum so it has to contain kinetic and potential energy.I HAVE TO understand it !
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@forest
http://www.animations.physics.unsw.edu.au/jw/LCresonance.html
and maybe this will be better:
http://openbookproject.net//electricCircuits/AC/AC_6.html
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Commercial and industrial watt meters supplied by utilities generally include a power factor multiplier reading on the meter. That multiplier goes from 1-10 and based on that reading, the total watts consumed will be multiplied by that number to get the final billing wattage. So the name of the game is to keep that multiplier as low as possible.
Basically, the magic number is 20 minutes since it takes at least 20 minutes of peek demand consumption to slide the multiplier out to its maximum reading. Let's say you have a very huge electric motor that takes a good 30 minutes to start up. Well the multiplier is a slide reading and will show the maximum amperage used during a steady 20 minute time slice of that motor start up. If peek draw can be held down to 3-4 minutes or half the rated amps, then the multiplier will not have enough time to get to the maximum, saving loads of money for the industry. But homes do not have such a multiplier?????
Most of the electronic power factor controllers will sense the load on an electric motor and if maximum load is not required, the controller will cut out a slice of the sine wave from the feed source to only let enough pass to meet the load. Actually it is not such a big deal since everything works at a rather slow 60 hz, you have more then enough time to cut out a part of the sine wave according to the load demand. It's not like guys here doing tests at a few megahertz, then trying to cut out a part of those frequencies. At 60 hertz, you have more then enough time to sense load and control feed.
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hello