Yep, Pese is right.

Pese,
Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?
DrSpark

No, DrSpark, the opposite - using a valid (and legal) "Power Factor (PF) Correction" (PFC) system would cause your meter to spin "slower", and your costs would be less (for what you really get)...
I think you already knew that, huh?



Anyway, many PFC methods are a very good thing (and legal!) - for both the customer and supplier (hmm?! ), because (as already mentioned) the Power Company charges you for "Watts" while your appliances are (in reality!) consuming "Volt Amperes" Reactive (due to a phase shift caused by any non pure ohmic load)...

So, a compensated el. grid consumption (approaching a PF=1) means lower bill for the consumer, and less load (lower peaks, costs for grid maintenance, ..) for the supplier.
Although you may have noticed that power supply companies are not exactly very enthusiastic to teach people how to pay less...  


If you use devices with rather low PF (e.g. less than 0,9) (any inductive/capacitive loads like motors (el. tools, ventilators, pumps,  .. ), tiny transformers, switcher supplies, mobile phone chargers,  electronic lamps, etc, etc..), you'll actually pay more for the electricity!

Why? Low PF device draws more current (uses more "real Watts") for equal performance as would a successfully compensated device. Or, it will perform worse under the same power conditions...
And who is paying the difference for that "apparent", not very usefull power (energy) difference - losses?
The consumers, of course! You see, the Company will get the money from you anyway...No matter how screwed your grid / appliances really are... You'll pay.  That's how it is for the last +100 years..


Industrial consumers (big power demands / large electricity bills) usually have their own "power factor compensation systems". (beside other "specialties", they have meters installed for both the Real (W) and reactive power (VAr).) They want the "VAr" meter to be as low as possible every month...
It is in their direct interest to minimize el.energy expenses as much as they can!

OK, we "the small consumers" would like to lower our el. bills, too! And yes, there is a way (there are actually many ways (like instant success of replacing the "old" lighting tech with a novel, power saver type,  ...) - which nowadays many of the people are aware of.., but here we are talking about less obvious (I'd say one of the less known) method as a possibility to further reduce our el. energy  expenses)..

There are ways (PFC devices) which helps us to do that, but they're usually rather expensive (you must consider that such devices must "be blessed" with many different certificates (even from your energy supplier), and usually have to be installed by a qualified personnel/organisation...)... So, it's a decision, a balance between a high cost (for a legally purchased & installed device) and a cumulative savings... It may take 20 years before such device would start to bring you the results... (think about a solar panel systems- how long it takes before they actually starts to bring you a real "profit"..?)...

But I think this may change in the (very) near future. After all, we are not just searching for "new energy", etc.. We should do our best to reduce even the current use of *available* energy...


Depends of what your average el. consumption (and how "reactive") really is, it would be realistic to expect maybe a 5-10% savings with a PFC system (for average users (imagine how many houses/flats there is...! A BIG opportunity for all the people...), but if you run a business with many el. driven machinery, your savings can become very obvious !). Yes, possibly (or "maybe") even some 40%! That's really something, no?

But certainly not a 100%. (lol) Or, (!!!), making your meter to "spin backwards" (>100%!)...
That's why the device presented in this thread ("Bondee") is suspicious! (and as far as I know, illegal in most of the countries )

If the device is able to make your meter to "spin backwards", it is definitely "messing" with the metering principles.
And, it is not a result of ANY KIND OF "FREE" ENERGY.
Cheers!

Pese,

Thank you, for making that clearer. For a night I wondered if I had learned that wrong.

Helmut,

There are many inductive loads here. To correct PF at the fuse box would require some smarts(cpu) and the ability to change capacitance in real time.  Not impossible to do, just more difficult and expensive..  Or a large variable capacitor that is servo controlled.

Group,

I purchased one of these little meters that count cost and display many things about the device plugged into it. Like cost, PF, Watts..
http://the-gadgeteer.com/review/kill_a_watt_ez_electricity_usage_monitor
for use correcting some of the larger loads in the home.

The meter says the CF (spiral cost saver bulbs) have about a .5 power factor, my guess is they cant fit the cap in there.

There could be a European version as constants in the calculator would only have to change from 120v/60hz to 220v/50hz.

DrSpark

 

If government really wanted to make a big dent in the energy crisis, they could make it LAW that electricity suppliers meters correct the power factor or calculate the cost as such. Giving them(suppliers) a good reason to make all meters perform the correction.

DrSpark

Government is the only body that can MAKE Corporations do things they normally would never do.

Creativity, you are correct, for government to do it, to the utility companys there would probbably be a 20year clause for completion. And We can do it much faster than that, If all we did was *fix* the electric compressors like Pese and You suggested that would make a large difference here.

DrSpark.

Yes i will make many measurements again  (did not log them) most things did not have any where near 1 for PF
Don't sweat to much the cfl's you are saving BUT seems is still a lie. saving not as much as claimed.

For those wanting to learn more here is a little power factor description and video of imhotep&shiva testing a couple of CFL with the same meter I have here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIyfYjoKc2k

Dave

as for the power saver  it looks a total scam to me. anyone know how it would work?

G'day Fritz,

From the limited research I did I gather that the motor on the meter relies on the frequency of the AC supply ie. 50 or 60 Hertz.

The idea is to send an inverted frequency signal back into the meter and apparently that stuffs up the works. As to a circuit for such a device I don't have one. According to the German authorities the device was designed by the same men that at the time designed and built the meters for the power companies. Sort of like a lucrative little sideline. They would have known how to fool their own product.

Hans von Lieven

G'day Fritz,

From the limited research I did I gather that the motor on the meter relies on the frequency of the AC supply ie. 50 or 60 Hertz.

The idea is to send an inverted frequency signal back into the meter and apparently that stuffs up the works. As to a circuit for such a device I don't have one. According to the German authorities the device was designed by the same men that at the time designed and built the meters for the power companies. Sort of like a lucrative little sideline. They would have known how to fool their own product.

Hans von Lieven

hans that sounds like  any grid tie inverter, the problem is it would take as much energy as the house was using. not to mention that grid ties have a lot of safety features to prevent islanding. the trick is to fool the meter not just pump power back to the grid. as i understand it there are 2 coils one for currant one for voltage and wheel speed of the meter is proportional to the in phase currant. very hard to fool.

This is illegal info lol;
I suspect the motor in the meter can only accelerate within limits.
I think the cheat system draws huge amount of power in 1-4 cycles charging caps that then feed an inverter.
The huge pull can happen before the meter motor can respond correctly.. Resulting in fewer counts..

Please don't do this as it really is wrong and is not free nrg! Its not a solution to the problem only an increase in the problem.

DrSpark

i assume you mean quarter cycles. the meter is an electric motor moved by the inphase field of the current and voltage coils, any pulses too quick to give the wheel a push would be too high a frequency
to allow much current to flow through the inductance of the system. also in the fifties high power transistors did not exist so how would they work the trick? as for cheating the meter there are many legal ways to reduce your bill..