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Author Topic: 100% energy saver in the market  (Read 36764 times)

Offline spinner

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 04:43:14 PM »
Yep, Pese is right.

Pese,
Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?
DrSpark

No, DrSpark, the opposite - using a valid (and legal) "Power Factor (PF) Correction" (PFC) system would cause your meter to spin "slower", and your costs would be less (for what you really get)...
I think you already knew that, huh?



Anyway, many PFC methods are a very good thing (and legal!) - for both the customer and supplier (hmm?! ;)), because (as already mentioned) the Power Company charges you for "Watts" while your appliances are (in reality!) consuming "Volt Amperes" Reactive (due to a phase shift caused by any non pure ohmic load)...

So, a compensated el. grid consumption (approaching a PF=1) means lower bill for the consumer, and less load (lower peaks, costs for grid maintenance, ..) for the supplier.
Although you may have noticed that power supply companies are not exactly very enthusiastic to teach people how to pay less... ;D  >:(


If you use devices with rather low PF (e.g. less than 0,9) (any inductive/capacitive loads like motors (el. tools, ventilators, pumps,  .. ), tiny transformers, switcher supplies, mobile phone chargers,  electronic lamps, etc, etc..), you'll actually pay more for the electricity!

Why? Low PF device draws more current (uses more "real Watts") for equal performance as would a successfully compensated device. Or, it will perform worse under the same power conditions...
And who is paying the difference for that "apparent", not very usefull power (energy) difference - losses?
The consumers, of course! You see, the Company will get the money from you anyway...No matter how screwed your grid / appliances really are... You'll pay.  That's how it is for the last +100 years..


Industrial consumers (big power demands / large electricity bills) usually have their own "power factor compensation systems". (beside other "specialties", they have meters installed for both the Real (W) and reactive power (VAr).) They want the "VAr" meter to be as low as possible every month...
It is in their direct interest to minimize el.energy expenses as much as they can!

OK, we "the small consumers" would like to lower our el. bills, too! And yes, there is a way (there are actually many ways (like instant success of replacing the "old" lighting tech with a novel, power saver type,  ...) - which nowadays many of the people are aware of.., but here we are talking about less obvious (I'd say one of the less known) method as a possibility to further reduce our el. energy  expenses)..

There are ways (PFC devices) which helps us to do that, but they're usually rather expensive (you must consider that such devices must "be blessed" with many different certificates (even from your energy supplier), and usually have to be installed by a qualified personnel/organisation...)... So, it's a decision, a balance between a high cost (for a legally purchased & installed device) and a cumulative savings... It may take 20 years before such device would start to bring you the results... (think about a solar panel systems- how long it takes before they actually starts to bring you a real "profit"..?)...

But I think this may change in the (very) near future. After all, we are not just searching for "new energy", etc.. We should do our best to reduce even the current use of *available* energy...


Depends of what your average el. consumption (and how "reactive") really is, it would be realistic to expect maybe a 5-10% savings with a PFC system (for average users (imagine how many houses/flats there is...! A BIG opportunity for all the people...), but if you run a business with many el. driven machinery, your savings can become very obvious !). Yes, possibly (or "maybe") even some 40%! That's really something, no?

But certainly not a 100%. (lol) Or, (!!!), making your meter to "spin backwards" (>100%!)...
That's why the device presented in this thread ("Bondee") is suspicious! (and as far as I know, illegal in most of the countries )

If the device is able to make your meter to "spin backwards", it is definitely "messing" with the metering principles.
And, it is not a result of ANY KIND OF "FREE" ENERGY.
Cheers!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2009, 04:43:14 PM »

Offline helmut

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2009, 05:33:52 PM »
Pese,

Are you saying, if i go to each motor and inductive load in my home, and correct the power factor, the meter/counter will spin faster, cost more?
and are you also saying that its illegal to do so?

DrSpark

 

@Dr Spark
Tere is no need to correct the power factor on each inductive load.
The best place to correct the Powerfactor is right behind the first Line-switch after the meter/counter.
Then all consumers are on a optimised Line.

helmut

Offline drspark

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2009, 12:25:19 AM »
Pese,

Thank you, for making that clearer. For a night I wondered if I had learned that wrong.

Helmut,

There are many inductive loads here. To correct PF at the fuse box would require some smarts(cpu) and the ability to change capacitance in real time.  Not impossible to do, just more difficult and expensive..  Or a large variable capacitor that is servo controlled.

Group,

I purchased one of these little meters that count cost and display many things about the device plugged into it. Like cost, PF, Watts..
http://the-gadgeteer.com/review/kill_a_watt_ez_electricity_usage_monitor
for use correcting some of the larger loads in the home.

The meter says the CF (spiral cost saver bulbs) have about a .5 power factor, my guess is they cant fit the cap in there.

There could be a European version as constants in the calculator would only have to change from 120v/60hz to 220v/50hz.

DrSpark

 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2009, 12:25:19 AM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2009, 12:33:57 AM »
.....


Amen!  ;D for the sake of clarity i went to check fridges at my shop.At all of them i found capacitors hanging next to the compressors(and i think they are there just to optimise power factor).So i think it is not so bad situation as u put it into the picture.Anyhow caps have quite big tolerances +/- 20% so i guess it is not so sweet and smooth optimisation afterall.
Also fans are without caps.

OK.we know the current situ,the method is well known to handle it.We have some electronic engenieers hanging around on this forum,and it seems no rocket technology.So...
Let us come with some schematics and test it out.It won't be expensive device anyhow.Besides we can make a big impact on our everyday bills and if it works well we will recommend it to all of our forum users and their friends and friends of friends.
We have a very good chance to actually make something and ease our everyday flustration with constant failures on our projects here :|

if we would like to make it a real cooperative project of OU,i started a new topic for it in  a proper section of OU forum:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6487.0
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 12:56:35 AM by Creativity »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline drspark

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2009, 12:38:59 AM »
If government really wanted to make a big dent in the energy crisis, they could make it LAW that electricity suppliers meters correct the power factor or calculate the cost as such. Giving them(suppliers) a good reason to make all meters perform the correction.

DrSpark

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2009, 12:38:59 AM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2009, 01:05:13 AM »
Government is not good in solving every person problems,nothing new in here.Let us make it by our self's,it fits into our paradigm.

I think we could stick to 80/20 rule and it would make a big progress already.We could connect it in one place ,make it adjustable to address the average situation at our home.So connect it once, adjust it once and forget it until u install some new ,big enough electric loads.

Another approach to connect the device per one line circuit.Some circuits will be stable(like lights in living room),some will have variable loads character like workshop.This approach looks more user friendly to me because almost everyone is affraid to work with elecricity.Best if we can come with a plug and play device,screwed in one of the light sockets or pluggable into outlet.

Offline drspark

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2009, 01:15:56 AM »
Government is the only body that can MAKE Corporations do things they normally would never do.

Creativity, you are correct, for government to do it, to the utility companys there would probbably be a 20year clause for completion. And We can do it much faster than that, If all we did was *fix* the electric compressors like Pese and You suggested that would make a large difference here.

DrSpark.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2009, 01:15:56 AM »
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Offline Creativity

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2009, 01:26:10 AM »
@drspark

can u repeat some of the PF tests on different electrical machines at ur house? we could gather some data and make a simulation of how much ur home would be able to save.This could help to make some interest in this topic, if we would put some real numbers into it!$ or € would be the best stimulant :D

im so pissed off now for my CFL's! and i thought it is so nice...
can u repeat this test with more CFL's in a circuit?just to see how it affect's to have a multipe interference in one circuit( ok it is not difficult to calculater either,just some inductive loads in parallel)

Offline drspark

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2009, 01:39:57 AM »
Yes i will make many measurements again  (did not log them) most things did not have any where near 1 for PF
Don't sweat to much the cfl's you are saving BUT seems is still a lie. saving not as much as claimed.

For those wanting to learn more here is a little power factor description and video of imhotep&shiva testing a couple of CFL with the same meter I have here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIyfYjoKc2k

Dave




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2009, 01:39:57 AM »
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Offline fritznien

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2009, 02:25:38 AM »
@ all!
 the watt hour meter used for the home dose not measure volt amps, it measures true power. it dose not gain you anything to correct power facter unless you have an industrial situation. industry can be billed not only for kwhrs but also powerfacter and peak load. you are arguing about a nonexistent problem.
as for the power saver  it looks a total scam to me. anyone know how it would work?

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2009, 02:49:57 AM »

as for the power saver  it looks a total scam to me. anyone know how it would work?

G'day Fritz,

From the limited research I did I gather that the motor on the meter relies on the frequency of the AC supply ie. 50 or 60 Hertz.

The idea is to send an inverted frequency signal back into the meter and apparently that stuffs up the works. As to a circuit for such a device I don't have one. According to the German authorities the device was designed by the same men that at the time designed and built the meters for the power companies. Sort of like a lucrative little sideline. They would have known how to fool their own product.

Hans von Lieven

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2009, 02:49:57 AM »
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Offline drspark

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2009, 03:44:23 AM »
Creativity,
Group,

I made some power measurements of things on around the house using my killawatt meter:
were supposed to be 120v @ 60hz

Blower on forced air, outside Wood burning stove/furnace.
123V, 2.35A, 153W, 290VA, 0.53PF
This Dual monitor computer, UPS, router, wireless radio and another computer CPU unit.
122.6V, 2.82A, 238W, 325VA, 0.69PF
Microwave Oven 1,1kw on hi cup of water inside.
119.8V, 11.77A, 1255W, 1400VA, 0.89PF
Christmas tree lights. incandescent lamps.
120V, 2.02A, 244W, 245VA, PF 1.0
Humidifier (portable)
122.4V, 0.16A, 11W, 19VA, 0.58PF
Large LCD TV, Satellite receiver dvr, DVD/VHS unit, alarm clock, Barn bug radio, all on UPS.
120.7, 2.17A, 243W, 263VA, 0.92PF
Phillips 13W CFL.
122.6V, 0.21A, 16W, 26VA, 0.62PF
CRT TV, volume set to max.
122.2V, 0.81A, 71W, 94VA, 0.73PF
Upright Freezer.
123.2V, 1.17A, 118W, 145VA, 0.81PF
Box window fan.
122.4V, 0.76A, 90W, 93VA, 0.95PF
All Tube oscilloscope.
122.2V, 2.62A, 300W, 320VA, 0.93PF

Most of the big things are wired in directly with no plug.
My wife wasn't doing laundry so i cant get data from those two machines.

DrSpark





Offline fritznien

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2009, 04:10:37 AM »
G'day Fritz,

From the limited research I did I gather that the motor on the meter relies on the frequency of the AC supply ie. 50 or 60 Hertz.

The idea is to send an inverted frequency signal back into the meter and apparently that stuffs up the works. As to a circuit for such a device I don't have one. According to the German authorities the device was designed by the same men that at the time designed and built the meters for the power companies. Sort of like a lucrative little sideline. They would have known how to fool their own product.

Hans von Lieven
hans that sounds like  any grid tie inverter, the problem is it would take as much energy as the house was using. not to mention that grid ties have a lot of safety features to prevent islanding. the trick is to fool the meter not just pump power back to the grid. as i understand it there are 2 coils one for currant one for voltage and wheel speed of the meter is proportional to the in phase currant. very hard to fool.

Offline drspark

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2009, 04:20:01 AM »
This is illegal info lol;
I suspect the motor in the meter can only accelerate within limits.
I think the cheat system draws huge amount of power in 1-4 cycles charging caps that then feed an inverter.
The huge pull can happen before the meter motor can respond correctly.. Resulting in fewer counts..

Please don't do this as it really is wrong and is not free nrg! Its not a solution to the problem only an increase in the problem.

DrSpark

Offline fritznien

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Re: 100% energy saver in the market
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 07:09:53 AM »
This is illegal info lol;
I suspect the motor in the meter can only accelerate within limits.
I think the cheat system draws huge amount of power in 1-4 cycles charging caps that then feed an inverter.
The huge pull can happen before the meter motor can respond correctly.. Resulting in fewer counts..

Please don't do this as it really is wrong and is not free nrg! Its not a solution to the problem only an increase in the problem.

DrSpark
i assume you mean quarter cycles. the meter is an electric motor moved by the inphase field of the current and voltage coils, any pulses too quick to give the wheel a push would be too high a frequency
to allow much current to flow through the inductance of the system. also in the fifties high power transistors did not exist so how would they work the trick? as for cheating the meter there are many legal ways to reduce your bill..

 

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