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Author Topic: Feedback To Source  (Read 349677 times)

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #705 on: April 06, 2011, 06:44:00 PM »
Thank you @nul-points
Thank you @allcanadian

@fatchance
Please iluminate us with your wisdom. Share with us your knowledge.
Point out what we are doing wrong and give us the right direction.
If what you teach us is good, everybody will know and applaud you.

Jesus

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #706 on: April 07, 2011, 03:17:10 AM »
Jesus:

Here is a mechanical way to pulse your battery, since you need just a touch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYhNw6SuTfA

This was the infamous Wilby's Bird Experiment which I think will work well for your circuit.  This was Wilby's brilliant idea and these little birds only cost about $5.00 online.  All it needs is a little water about once/week and, it does not take any energy away from your circuit like a 555 timer would.

Check this out as I really think it will work.

Bill

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #707 on: April 07, 2011, 05:54:39 PM »
Jesus:

Here is a mechanical way to pulse your battery, since you need just a touch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYhNw6SuTfA

This was the infamous Wilby's Bird Experiment which I think will work well for your circuit.  This was Wilby's brilliant idea and these little birds only cost about $5.00 online.  All it needs is a little water about once/week and, it does not take any energy away from your circuit like a 555 timer would.

Check this out as I really think it will work.

Bill

I have been having troubles with the internet connection...

Thank you @pirate!
I knew about that one. If I remember I did one sketch about it.
The only problem I found with it is that it sometimes stays making the connection for too long.
When it does that, the motor stops and it is not self starter. You have to give it the starting turn. Then the motor keeps turning.

I do expect that the internet signal does not disappear again today.

Jesus

Offline nul-points

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #708 on: April 07, 2011, 06:05:08 PM »
hi Jesus

i've been thinking more about your circuit


while it's true that connecting your 1N4007 causes a direct DC path from 12V to the 1.5V rail of the battery and LT device, i don't think this is the direct cause of the damage

the 12V point is the output of the LT device and the 1.5V point is the input of the LT device

so i believe that the direct cause for damage is that connecting the output to the input via the 1N4007 is causing the LT device to go into external oscillation - and this oscillation, if it occurs for long enough, is what damages the device

there is some evidence which supports this idea: you mentioned that connecting the 1N4007 causes a high-pitched whine from the coil, and the neon gets a lot brighter - both are signs that the circuit has started generating strong oscillations

manufacturers of devices like the LTxxx advise users to avoid such feedback and oscillation, but i'm interested by the details you've reported

so why not let it run automatically, in a controlled way - as you first intended - and tell us what you find!


my previous circuit is aimed at blocking the damaging feedback to allow the circuit to operate continuously with the coil-collapse energy feeding back to the battery

however, as i've mentioned, i think you'll find that when the feedback is only the coil-collapse energy on its own (ie. the usual method used in JTs & Bedini, etc) that although the efficiency of your circuit should increase - you probably won't see that dramatic recharge of the battery


so i suggest you try my previous suggested circuit first and try to get a measure for any increase of time running from, say, a AAA or AA battery (smaller is better, if it can drive the motor, because it won't take so long to wait for the battery to discharge)


you could then add a circuit, similar to the one below, which DOES cause the 'unwanted' oscillation across the LT device - but only for a fraction of a second, say, every few seconds

then, repeat the discharge test with the new circuit added and see if this gives better or worse efficiency for the 1.5V battery


the new circuit, which allows occasional DC feedback from the 12V point to the 1.5V battery, is controlled by a similar switching circuit to the one you've posted recently

once VR1 & VR2 are adjusted to give a short pulse every few seconds (like your manual 'tap' of the wire onto the battery), then the pulse will switch on Q4, via the opto-isolator, to connect diode D4 to the battery

you would use this new circuit in addition to the previous DC blocking feedback circuit - on this new diagram i've shown where C1 & L2 from the previous circuit get connected (still in the same place as before)

it would be best, if you decide to try this circuit also, to use a separate battery for the new switching arrangement at first, just to see if the new circuit improves the efficiency of your system - it's decoupled by the opto-isolator, so it won't add or draw any energy from your basic system

the new battery could probably be 2 or 3 AAAs or AAs in series

let me know if you'd like some guidance with component values


hope this helps

all the best
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 06:39:03 PM by nul-points »

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #709 on: April 07, 2011, 06:21:29 PM »
Thank you @nul-points!

I can see that this one is more compkicated and that it need another battery to work.
If that is the case, we still have the problem of charging the two batteries then.
It seems to be an isolated circuit by the opto that will activate the transistor and send the charging diodes energy to the battery.

Again the only problem besides the name of the parts is that it needs another battery to work. Or is it that, that battery represents the charging battery?

Jesus

Looking at it again I can see now that it is a flip flop circuit. A member called @electricme likes that circuit too.


Offline nul-points

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #710 on: April 07, 2011, 06:45:16 PM »
hi Jesus

yes - i think it best to try with a separate (2nd) battery at first

it's easier to arrange - then you can move on quickly to do some discharge tests and see how the efficiency of this arrangement compares with just feeding back the coil-collapse energy to source

if it seems that this new circuit is doing good things then you can look at powering the whole system from just one battery

(the flip-flop circuit - or 'astable multivibrator' - can be made to have a low current draw so that its battery lasts a long time)

all the best
np

http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #711 on: April 07, 2011, 08:16:57 PM »
Maybe you can use a electronic relay?

GL.

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #712 on: April 08, 2011, 02:09:28 PM »
Thank you @groundloop!
Welcome.

The A B C connector is it the output of the two relays?

Jesus

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #713 on: April 08, 2011, 02:16:35 PM »
I have been having troubles with the internet signal. Sometimes it is not present for days.

With the circuit posted by @nul points I built two different uses.
Both using the same 1.5v power source.

The second circuit can have on the before being the feedback to the transistor or trigger, a full rectifier or anything that the inventive allows.

Jesus

Offline nul-points

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #714 on: April 08, 2011, 03:21:12 PM »
With the circuit posted by @nul points I built two different uses.
Both using the same 1.5v power source.

The second circuit can have on the before being the feedback to the transistor or trigger, a full rectifier or anything that the inventive allows.

Jesus

hi Jesus

sorry to hear about your internet problems - hope they get fixed soon!


the circuit suggestions i posted previously should be added to your existing circuit, rather than replacing parts of it

in your 2nd circuit  immediately above this post, it looks like you've replaced the timing feedback from the motor to the drive transistor with the switching circuit for the feedback from 12V DC to battery

the switching circuit is intended to give a short pulse every few seconds - it is not at all related to the position of the motor, so i think you'll need to also add back your original transistor and feed back from the 2nd motor coil


in your 1st circuit immediately above this post, you only show the extra circuit which allows intermittent feedback from 12V DC to the battery (but not the DC blocking circuit for the feedback of the motor coil-field collapse)

this will allow you to automate your original idea to have an occasional 'touch' connection of the 1N4007 onto the battery (ie. feedback of 12V DC to battery) - but - you will be missing out on the feedback of the coil-field collapse, which can be allowed to happen continuously

...just thought i ought to point out these issues because your latest two circuits, as shown, will not give you the best performance (and the 2nd might not even drive the motor correctly)

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 


Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #715 on: April 08, 2011, 03:44:55 PM »
On the second one the idea is to increase the frequency 50/50 so once the signal of the oscilator goes to the motor coil and then to charge the battery with the EMF generated.

It is very clear that the two situations cant ocurr at the same time. So the battery will be maintained while the motor is cruising between signals.

I could be wrong though.

Jesus

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #716 on: April 08, 2011, 03:52:30 PM »
According to your post, the first circuit I posted (1_5vCircuit07New02) needs to be integrated to this one.

Jesus

Offline nul-points

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #717 on: April 08, 2011, 04:58:29 PM »
According to your post, the first circuit I posted (1_5vCircuit07New02) needs to be integrated to this one.

Jesus

hi Jesus

yes, that correct - *IF* you want your circuit to benefit from both forms of feedback together:

a) 12V DC connection back to battery (intermittent - like manual 'touch')

b) motor coil-field collapse energy back to battery (regular spikes)


of course, you can choose to add only feedback method (a) OR only (b) first - to measure any improvement in full battery discharge time

*then* add the 2nd suggested feedback method and re-measure any change in full battery discharge time

i hope i've explained that in a helpful way


NB. it would be very unusual if method (a) improves the efficiency - but that is why we do these experiments...

Doc Ringwood's motto:
  you won't discover new territory if you always stay on the road!   :)


all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #718 on: April 09, 2011, 12:34:12 AM »
Thank you @nul-points!

Jesus

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: Feedback To Source
« Reply #719 on: April 09, 2011, 12:40:31 AM »
@groundloop

I do not understand the arrow going from A to B on the schematic.
If it is another relay that goes there. Why use more than one relay?

Jesus