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Author Topic: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind  (Read 121115 times)

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #135 on: May 23, 2010, 04:50:40 PM »
TS
The sound isn't working on my computer where I'm staying ,
whats with that forever car??
what claims are they making?
Clo and others have been suggesting this is possible[making power while underway]

does this work??[forever car]

Chet
It looks like a funny hoax, and I feel stupid for taking it seriously for all those 10 seconds.

I was just thinking of a railway system again. Carts with props and airfoils should do nicely. Underlocking wheels/rails, of course, to deal with (wanted and harvested) crosswinds. With proper computer controls, optimal use would always be made of the wind. Track provides stability required, like the ultimate keel. Airfoils and props could be rather large compared to the 8-person capsule. Huge thrust, tiny overhead. And yes, excess to be fed into the grid. Grid tapped for climbing hills, crossing low wind sections, etc. Also for direct head wind situations, which would be the sole issue.
Automatic distance keeping to prevent wind-stealing and collisions.

It would never be allowed, of course. Someone would tell it's too expensive. 130 year gain back of costs. Except, people are powering their houses with turbines made from scrap. It's not rocket science, it's wind science. The wind was given to us to figure out :-)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #136 on: May 24, 2010, 05:57:01 AM »
Study the Velomobile of Stuttgart's.  It is designed to provide direct capture no matter the vehicle's orientation.  The fact that it can do 64% directly upwind says much.  (alot, actually)

Perhaps there is a ratio to be found, regarding how fast the relative wind speed must be in order for the proper vehicle to capture enough energy to achieve something even more remarkable...


TS

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #137 on: May 24, 2010, 04:16:21 PM »
Study the Velomobile of Stuttgart's.  It is designed to provide direct capture no matter the vehicle's orientation.  The fact that it can do 64% directly upwind says much.  (alot, actually)

Perhaps there is a ratio to be found, regarding how fast the relative wind speed must be in order for the proper vehicle to capture enough energy to achieve something even more remarkable...


TS
I think such vehicles show that a turbine or prop can have lower drag than it has torque or thrust. I bet the Black Bird can reach 100% of wind speed, upwind. Apparent wind speed (2x head wind) is then the same as DDW at 3x wind speed.

The next step would be to start a chain reaction where a "simple" turbine on the roof turns into a jet-like howler, with huge thrust which can be harvested. This step, as much as I want it, seems very implausible.

The Black Bird defies logic, not laws of nature as we know them. It use it's attained speed to take yet more energy out of the wind. I've searched my life (passively) for such a solution, but others had already invented it before my birth, and the BB team put it into life size, manned propulsion.

In my opinion, Black Bird shows that humanity's main occupation seems to be wasting wind energy. Letting it fly past, litterally. Even if we let it feather a wind turbine, some 150m tall, behind, the win is till blowing significantly. And the wind mill to exploit that wind, is not there.
Like being part of a thirsty village, and taking a cappucino cup to the nearby creek, and try to feed the village. There, people have glasses and straws to drink from. All those straws would better be used for a pipeline to get the water to the village. Inside the pipeline, it can't evaporate.

Anyway, vehicles CAN be largely or completely wind powered, AND quick. I firmly believe with some funding could make a car sized vehicle that goes around like a proper car, driving 2-3 hours per day, and never be on the grid. Smart aerodynamic adjustments can make it sail through trafic while staying within the white lines, not even swerving.
A rail system would be easier though, and provide more hours per day, just at hard to predict speeds. And, to add to my rail system idea, 2 carts headed the same direction for a longer distance should be coupled, to share their frontal overhead surface, and almost double their thrust. The front's props would be moved outside, the rear's up, for instance, to not share wind path. With side winds, not need for tricks, each airfoil package will work optimally. Faster for similar reasons why inline tandem bikes are faster than 2 single ones.

Think of it. In sail boots, the limit in speed is pretty much the height of the sail, which is dependent on the keel's stability. I don't sail, but that's how I see it.
Now imagine an infinitely stable keel, with barely any drag (a railway sytem that fixes the vehicle in place, oreventing it to tip). Sails could be seriously tall, to help overcome the overhead wheel/wind friction. And being seriously wide as well, they could be angled steeply in the wind, bring huge ground speeds.

If there's a stretch of deserted railroad out there, through a valley for instance with predictable wind directions, it would be interesting to investigate the actual geomtry of the railtrack to see if a vehicle could be designed to fix itself to it. Wheels ON the rails as usual, and an axtra set coming from the outside, UNDER the rails. It may take a huge grinding job to prepare the track for a proof of concept ride, but you'll get my idea.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #137 on: May 24, 2010, 04:16:21 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #138 on: May 24, 2010, 09:41:33 PM »
TS
Sweet
Ventomobile Wind Powered Vehicle
At 15 MPH "into the wind"These guys should break the google speed downwind record![Tsk Tsk.....]

Clo you have a wonderful imagination Bud![the rail thing would be cool]
but whats the BB bit?

Chet

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #139 on: May 24, 2010, 09:56:40 PM »

Just came across this:

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/03/31/jet-engine-like-wind-turbine-4-times-more-efficient/

It seems I am less original than I had tentatively given myself credit for.....Their design is eminently scalable and is quite similar in principle, to my own.


TS

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #139 on: May 24, 2010, 09:56:40 PM »
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Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #140 on: May 24, 2010, 10:52:50 PM »

Clo you have a wonderful imagination Bud![the rail thing would be cool]
but whats the BB bit?

Black Bird is the new name of the DDWFTTW cart of the American team.

Offline ramset

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2010, 02:05:15 PM »
TS
Now that is very cool!!
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/03/31/jet-engine-like-wind-turbine-4-times-more-efficient/

And these fellows are close by[less than an hour]
definitely looking into this when things slow down at the boat yard.[see if they have gone to manufacture?]

Funny I was looking in to building a bow thruster blade[prop],hence the "carrots".
maybe I'll play in the wind also![HHMMmm. if it works in the wind ,it should work in the water?]
Fixed blades!![nothing moves but the bearing]
Very cool !!

Chet
PS Clo
Thanks on th BB

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2010, 02:05:15 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #142 on: May 26, 2010, 02:33:38 PM »
Well,
The thing about wind is it can be fickle,comes and goes,sometimes to much sometimes to little.

My car however................

TS ,
can this be possible?
Could we build a "forevercar"?

I bet the boys in Mass. would help us with that one!
What do you say fellas??

I'll go see them ,But only if we will work together "open source"!

Chet

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #143 on: May 26, 2010, 02:51:44 PM »
Forevercar would be an interesting challenge.

I propose a special rail track be build for this, roughly a triangle shape, to keep it interesting.
Batteries on board to ensure >0 speeds in low winds, albeit very reduced speeds (low rolling resistance is key here). Flat ground, of course.
Car only goes full speed when batteries are fully charged.

I have some advanced ideas for collapsible airfoils and even propellors. Transformer robot style. More to boost speed than to ensure non-stopness.

Once the thing runs well on wind power alone, batteries may prove the limiting factor, or perhaps reason is found to add solar cells for extrqa speed during daylight.
Properly engineered, I would not be too surprised if a non-stop 60mph could be achieved, with a payload of several persons.

A sailboat may already be able to do this, with some batteries, turbines, and solar panels. How long can a drought of wind be, a few weeks? And boats have the added opportunity to make use of streams and tides to extract energy from the ocean.

How would the self-vortexing rimmed turbines do in propellor mode DDWFTTW, for the same diameter as the Black Bird's prop?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #143 on: May 26, 2010, 02:51:44 PM »
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Offline ramset

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #144 on: May 26, 2010, 04:51:08 PM »
Clo
I want to drive !!
A "forever"!
Cadillac had a motor that dropped 2-4 cylinders out at speed,because once you get to speed it requires less effert to stay there.

This little "4 times more efficient " turbine/vortex gizzmo just might make enough power at speed to run "forever".
That would be enough "overunity" for me!!
And no voodoo.......... ,nice wholesome wind![a rushing mighty wind even......]

A little test bed should prove sufficient !??

Any ideas ?
Lets build something!!

Chet

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #145 on: May 27, 2010, 01:05:33 AM »
Quote
This little "4 times more efficient " turbine/vortex gizzmo just might make enough power at speed to run "forever".
That would be enough "overunity" for me!!

I have contacted FloDesign's pres....though I think it highly likely that they are not interested in 'open source' activities, as inexorably chained to the profit motive as corporations are, historically speaking.  You see....as DWFTTW and Stuttgart's upwind achievements have aptly demonstrated, there are some serious gains to be made in these areas.  No profit motive required.

As for a test bed vehicle, if time permits, I may still go ahead with mine.  I feel that Stuttgart's heartening 64% upwind achievement may be eclipsed considerably.....as in 'total solar' fashion.

FloDesign is well positioned to deploy some crazy efficient innovations.....we'll see what we see.


TS
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 01:34:22 AM by TechStuf »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #145 on: May 27, 2010, 01:05:33 AM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #146 on: May 27, 2010, 03:33:16 AM »
Quote
How would the self-vortexing rimmed turbines do in propellor mode DDWFTTW, for the same diameter as the Black Bird's prop?

A relatively slow turning prop such as that used by the 'black bird' team aptly demonstrates the gains to be had by even such a relatively inefficient setup as they have to work with.  As the prop develops thrust against the tailwind, it's slow moving inner radius, being unable to overcome the tail wind, acts as a slowly rotating vortex generator. Allowing the tail wind to push past, but causing it to be entrained in a spiral flow.  On the run up to speed, the swirling vortexes not only increase beneficial drag, but also trade energies with the air mass at the tips, creating, in effect, a large, curious type of vortex ring, such that eventually, it is able to break free of the tail wind behind it, instead now relying largely upon it's own continually generated low pressure area at the front of the vehicle.  One which, not only provides a continual negative pressure ahead, but one that helps drive the prop as well.

Once these dynamics are confirmed and studied, a prop may be  designed which will exploit these gains considerably.  Propeller technology is still in it's infancy.

Imagine props which are specifically designed to use the inner portion to generate vortices in order to increase efficiency, by lowering the engine torque required to turn them. 

Essentially pulling ourselves ahead by our own atmosphere's unending supply of bootstraps.

One of the cool things about a vortex ring is that, if structure correctly, it can be made to augment the forward thrust generated at it's outer periphery, with the negative pressure zone at it's core.  By shifting the negative pressure zone just ahead of center, one is achieving, among other things, a molecular gyrosopic thrust device.


TS




Offline ramset

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #147 on: May 27, 2010, 02:13:37 PM »
TS
HHMMmm.........
So I see you have a grasp on this [enough to help me understand it!!]

TS Quote:


A relatively slow turning prop such as that used by the 'black bird' team aptly demonstrates the gains to be had by even such a relatively inefficient setup as they have to work with.  As the prop develops thrust against the tailwind, it's slow moving inner radius, being unable to overcome the tail wind, acts as a slowly rotating vortex generator. Allowing the tail wind to push past, but causing it to be entrained in a spiral flow.  On the run up to speed, the swirling vortexes not only increase beneficial drag, but also trade energies with the air mass at the tips, creating, in effect, a large, curious type of vortex ring, such that eventually, it is able to break free of the tail wind behind it, instead now relying largely upon it's own continually generated low pressure area at the front of the vehicle.  One which, not only provides a continual negative pressure ahead, but one that helps drive the prop as well.

Once these dynamics are confirmed and studied, a prop may be  designed which will exploit these gains considerably.  Propeller technology is still in it's infancy.

Imagine props which are specifically designed to use the inner portion to generate vortices in order to increase efficiency, by lowering the engine torque required to turn them.

Essentially pulling ourselves ahead by our own atmosphere's unending supply of bootstraps.

One of the cool things about a vortex ring is that, if structure correctly, it can be made to augment the forward thrust generated at it's outer periphery, with the negative pressure zone at it's core.  By shifting the negative pressure zone just ahead of center, one is achieving, among other things, a molecular gyrosopic thrust device.


TS
-------------------------------------------------


                          WOW!!
I'm more intrigued than ever!![hard not to be}.

Thanks
Chet






Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #148 on: May 27, 2010, 02:59:28 PM »
@ramset:
As a boy I dreamt up such a car, 12 cylinder, but using them only as necessary. A supercar weighing a typical 1200kg (both for ultra supercars and boring family saloons) could run on 4 for highway cruising, up to 12 for track days. At 4 cylinders and 60mph, it should run more efficient than a saloon, thanks to optimized aerodynamics, the largest loss of all.
Since, I learned that cylinders themselves are flawed, especially when used with crank shafts. Now here is a design that seems such a no-brainer, but is responsible for over half our transport fossil fuel needs, over the optimal design which is much simpler. Tommey Reed is onto some great designs for explosion engines.

Anyway, on wind.
I posted an idea on the http://www.talkrational.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5 discussions, for a system, possibly using the flodesign turbine as a prop, where the air inlet would be low and in front of the vehicle, and the exhaust high up. This, to exploit the wind speed differential between lower and higher air layers. Not sure that makes any sense...
Anyway, to minimize wind drag on the mid section, which transports the air from the lower layer to the upper, wind should be funneled and accelerate into propably a vortex, so the transport tube takes up less frontal surface space. additionally, the (diagonally placed in side-view) tube could have some spoilers to reduce drag. These spoilers might as well house (part of) the supporting structure.

I'm now again breaking my head on whether any of the discussed ideas can contribute to a working to a DDWFTTW groundeffect airplane. Especially the lower/upper wind layers might come in handy here. I can imagine existing real tailwind right over the surface being decellerated as an air cushion is formed for the uniwinged craft overhead. The belly of the craft is a conveyer belt with vanes much like a steamboat wheel, scooping up the slow air, and the belt then running the higher placed prop.
Funny thing is that should the craft come too low, where the actual water speed is likely lower than the wind speed, the belt engaging it would actually increase thrust to the prop, increasing speed, and thereby lift. Hmmm...only if it got to fly at all, of course.
So, the belt might work for an engine-assisted start in catemaran mode, totally like the Black Bird cart. It will just need huge float and low ater resistance. With increasing speed, gradually allowing more air to come under the craft to lift it out of the water, and increasing belt vane depth, length and width.

My ideas tend to be near impossible to construct. But who WOULDN'T want a DDWFTTW aircraft?



Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #149 on: May 27, 2010, 06:33:37 PM »
Quote from TS: "A relatively slow turning prop such as that used by the 'black bird'  team aptly demonstrates the gains to be had by even such a relatively  inefficient setup as they have to work with."

A large slow turning prop is more efficient than a smaller prop turning at high rpm. (I learned this in flight training)  This is why a helicopter can take-off vertically on the same weight/power as an airplane, which can't accelerate straight up.

Bill

 

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