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Author Topic: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind  (Read 117663 times)

Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #165 on: August 28, 2010, 06:00:32 PM »
I must say this is a captivating idea. After reading through this thread there are a couple of thoughts I would like to add.
First of all there is gain somewhere in the system that needs to be pinned down. It needs to be analyzed and defined so it can be optimized.
The most likely candidate I see for gain is the prop. I think there are a couple of forces working on the prop to give it thrust.
The first and most obvious is the ability of the prop to move air and produce thrust. Nothing too mysterious there. The other force working on the prop is pressure.
The prop traveling through the air produces a low pressure on the forward side of the prop surface and a high pressure on the rear surface. This differential in pressure produces thrust in the direction of high pressure towards the low pressure.
On the prop this thrust can manifest in both in the axial and the radial directions. Depending on the shape of the prop, this thrust can propel the vehicle forward or be transferred to the wheels through radial thrust.
One aspect of this vehicle that stands out for me is that it has to get up to a certain speed to become self motivating. This means that somewhere along the line a linear increase in velocity is producing a non linear increase in thrust. Once again this points back to the prop.
My best guess is that the prop is acting like an airfoil. This would increase the radial thrust of the prop as airspeed across the surfaces of the prop increased. This thrust would then be directly transferred to the wheels. This could account for the extra energy. An airplane wing develops lift as a result of a pressure imbalance produced by the difference in air velocity between the top and bottom halves of the wing. While the actual cause of this pressure differential is still argued to this day, my opinion is that it is caused by the Bernoulli effect.
This same principal is what allows the ice boats to go so fast up wind. This thrust is caused by the velocity differential of two streams of air moving over a particularly shaped solid surface. In other words, the iceboat sails have a lot of “lift”. A prop has lift too.
My hunch is that this prop lift is what needs to be optimized.

Cheers,

Ted


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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #165 on: August 28, 2010, 06:00:32 PM »

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #166 on: August 28, 2010, 09:24:31 PM »
Quote
An airplane wing develops lift as a result of a pressure imbalance produced by the difference in air velocity between the top and bottom halves of the wing. While the actual cause of this pressure differential is still argued to this day, my opinion is that it is caused by the Bernoulli effect.

This is a very common misconception regarding aerodynamics.  The great majority of lift is always provided by reaction lift.

Judging by the prop speed of the Black Bird vehicle and the portion of the prop which allows for such, the relatively miniscule gains provided by the 'Bernoulli effect' are wholly insufficient to account for the effects we are witnessing.

What we are witnessing covers much more territory than aerodynamics alone and is allegorical to effects which, once fully understood, will be revealed to have long been applicable to both the largest and the smallest of possible scales.


TS

Offline sparks

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #167 on: August 28, 2010, 10:25:39 PM »
  How can an airplane go a thousand miles an hour without using any fuel at all. 

  Answers A.  You are nuts it is totally impossible.
              B.  Draw on zero point energy whatever that is
              C.  Fill the air craft with lighter than air gas and float into space.  Let the earth pass underneath you
                   at a thousand miles an hour then compress the gas so you fall to Earth a thousand miles away from where
                    you ascended.  Slow your descent with turbines that charge batteries so that when you reach the deck
                     you dont kill yourself and you have enough juice on board to drive the compressors that triggered the
                    descent.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #167 on: August 28, 2010, 10:25:39 PM »
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Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #168 on: August 29, 2010, 12:24:12 AM »
This is a very common misconception regarding aerodynamics.  The great majority of lift is always provided by reaction lift.

Judging by the prop speed of the Black Bird vehicle and the portion of the prop which allows for such, the relatively miniscule gains provided by the 'Bernoulli effect' are wholly insufficient to account for the effects we are witnessing.

What we are witnessing covers much more territory than aerodynamics alone and is allegorical to effects which, once fully understood, will be revealed to have long been applicable to both the largest and the smallest of possible scales.


TS
You dispute my theory, which is fine, yet you offer nothing better. What force do you believe accounts for the extra energy?

Offline sparks

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #169 on: August 29, 2010, 01:17:19 AM »
  What I would like to know is if the wind is not blowing at all.  Does the vehicle move.  Can you take the vehicle in a dead calm accelerate it to whatever speed and then just have it take off.  If this is possible then this is unique.  Otherwise  what difference is there between this machine and an airplane traveling from the west coast to the east coast.  Airplane companies always carry less fuel per passenger traveling east to west.  The assholes almost got me killed because of this,  They fueled the plane to save money burning fuel to move fuel on a trip from the West coast to Chicago.  Chicago (the stupidest place in the world to have an international airport due to the proximity to the great lakes)  is socked in.  The ceiling at ground level.   Just enough fuel on board to get to Chicago not to spend an hour in the air waiting for fog to lift.  The landing became an emergency issue.  When we came out of the fog I could tell if guys walking on the street down below were bald and who wasnt.  The pilot knows he is short of the runway and way too low so he guns it.  By now everybody is in the kiss your ass goodbye position.  Even the stewards are frightened.  We hit the runway going way too fast.  The pilot full reverse thrust to the engine uses every inch of the runway to stop the plane.  We are greeted by a special ground crew assembled to put out fires and extract people from wrecks.  The plane is so deep in the runway it cant even turn itself around and we have to wait for a tractor to come out and pull us back down to the taxiway.   My wife has dug her nails so deep in  my arm I'm bleeding and all the captain has to say is the regular bs about welcome to chicago the temperature outside etc.  Cheap assholes.  Just another example of money before life. 

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #169 on: August 29, 2010, 01:17:19 AM »
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Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #170 on: August 29, 2010, 08:04:14 AM »
This is a very common misconception regarding aerodynamics.  The great majority of lift is always provided by reaction lift.
Not always. In a big jet it is, but in smaller craft Bernoulli lift plays a larger part. But then, we aren't talking about an airplane wing here are we?

Quote
Judging by the prop speed of the Black Bird vehicle and the portion of the prop which allows for such, the relatively miniscule gains provided by the 'Bernoulli effect' are wholly insufficient to account for the effects we are witnessing.
Your "reactive lift" in this type of prop results in axial thrust. This is obviously the major axis of thrust for any prop. However, in order to drive the wheels there has to be radial thrust. Unless you believe that all the thrust is coming from the reactive component.
I can't see the exact contour of the prop they are using. Nevertheless, most propellers are designed with an integral an airfoil (this would be to take advantage of the Bernoulli effect). As the rotation speed of this type of propeller increases, the Bernoilli effect would increasingly exert rotational thrust.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/props/TH18G3.jpg

Quote
What we are witnessing covers much more territory than aerodynamics alone and is allegorical to effects which, once fully understood, will be revealed to have long been applicable to both the largest and the smallest of possible scales.


TS
And that would be??

Offline ramset

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2010, 03:28:35 PM »
Gentlemen,
All theories aside
I love the wind!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCuP-XHefTo&feature=related

And I believe "absolutely".
We will fly with no power![in any direction or wind]
 
Just have to put together the pieces!

Chet

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2010, 03:28:35 PM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #172 on: August 30, 2010, 12:00:23 AM »
Quote
You dispute my theory, which is fine, yet you offer nothing better.


http://amasci.com/wing/airfoil.html

http://mb-soft.com/public2/lift.html

Quote
And that would be??

....a question most easily asked when one pops into a thread without studying what has already been said.



Ramset, I believe you just might be right! 




TS
 

Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #173 on: August 30, 2010, 03:47:02 AM »




....a question most easily asked when one pops into a thread without studying what has already been said.
 




TS
 
An answer most easily given when a real one is unavailable.

Ted


P. S. I already read through the thread.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #173 on: August 30, 2010, 03:47:02 AM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #174 on: August 30, 2010, 05:50:55 AM »
Quote
P. S. I already read through the thread.



Then I must ask, what remains so persuasive to you about the Bernoulli principle as being the chief acting force behind the phenomenon?  That is, assuming you understand the force of this principle relative to the other forces involved.


TS






Offline sparks

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #175 on: August 30, 2010, 09:02:28 AM »
    What we have here I believe is a machine that gets in between two inertial frames.  Einstein said that all physics is the same in all inertial frames.  The physics involved between two inertial frames is another story. Imagine taking a big top and placing it on a train car that has cogged wheels and mechanical linkage from the wheels to a transmission that drives the top. .  We have all had a top spinning before in the palm of our hand and felt how hard it is to move our hand.  The top resists our motion.  This is not magic this is basically mass in motion tends to stay in motion.  This motion is angular motion and resides in  a rotating inertial frame.  The subtle thing is right under our noses is that the top wants to stay in the spacetime continoum right where it is.  It does not want to move and will resist any force trying to move it.  So we get this top spinning.  We can push the car down the track to get it spinning or we can spin it up with some motor.  As we spin it up if our train tracks run east to west.  Suddenly something happens.  The train car starts moving down the tracks.  As it moves down the tracks the cogged wheels transfer the resistance of the vehicles movement to more angular velocity of the top.  This increases the resistance of the top to any movement.  The train tracks are bolted down to the Earth which is moving at 1000 miles per hour relative to the inertial frame we are creating on the train car.  As we increase the velocity of the top it gains mass.  The mass is gained from the angular momentum transfer from Earth.  Just like the moon gets angular momentum transfer from the Earth and will one day move beyond the gravitational field of the Earth towards parts unknown.  The drag from the moon will no longer be on the Earth and the Earth will stop slowing down.  The train car will appear to be going down the tracks powered by some invisible force when all it is doing is staying put while the Earth is moving.  The Earth is a big gear driving a little gear.  The Earths power or mass in motion is pretty good sized.  It is moving relative to the somewhat static cosmic background radiation at 300km per second.  How much transfer of angular momentum do we need to realize 10's of thousands of miles per hour travel simply by staying put.  A ufo encounter person once asked the ufo pilot what made their vehicle move so fast.  The pilot replied the power of the Earth.  Duh.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #175 on: August 30, 2010, 09:02:28 AM »
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Offline Ted Ewert

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #176 on: August 30, 2010, 06:07:33 PM »
I agree that we have two integrated inertial frames. I also think it's why this thing works at all.
If you take either the prop or the cart by themselves, neither one is self motivating. When the power is removed from the prop on an airplane, it slows down and eventually stops. The same thing happens with a cart.
So, what is it about putting the two together which suddenly provides enough extra energy to accelerate the vehicle?
I spend most of my experimental time building pulse motors these days. Nevertheless, I have done a fair amount of work on mechanical mechanisms which exhibit gain characteristics. What I have found as a general rule is that it it quite difficult to take the output energy of a device and feed it right back to the input and expect it to run itself. What usually has to occur is a delay or a "shuttling" of that energy before it is fed back to the front end. There has to be a time delay of some sort in the loop. I have found this holds true for both mechanical and electrical energy.
This vehicle has an excellent delay loop mechanism between the prop, chain drive, wheels, ground and air. Plenty of time for the energy to get transformed and shuttled around.
Nevertheless, I still think there is a manifestation of energy somewhere along the line which is unaccounted for. Since it seems to be velocity related, I have to go with the prop. Whether it's the Bernoulli effect or not I don't know for sure. But, since the Bernoulli effect is velocity dependent I think it is a good candidate for further study.
It would be an interesting experiment to put a one way bearing (clutch bearing) on the wheel axle. This would isolate the wheel torque from the prop torque. In other words, the wheels could drive the prop but the prop couldn't drive the wheels. This would show whether or not prop torque was a contributor to propulsion. If axial thrust was the only force provided by the propeller, then there would be no difference in performance.
If the vehicle didn't work with the bearing in, then at least the source of extra energy would be narrowed down.

Cheers,

Ted

Offline Cloxxki

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #177 on: August 30, 2010, 09:26:33 PM »
Over time, I'm starting to understand the cart better.

To respond to some of the above:
- Without wind, it doesn't move. The prop gearing act like a kind of lever to the wind, without force, there is no distance.
- It goes faster than the wind, because energy is extracted at the wheels (which turn at ground speed), and the prop creates thrust from this by milling through air that moves past the cart slower (due to tailwind). There is more thrust than power extracted from the wheels.

Did I post this already? I have an idea how to get airborne with DDWFTTW, without tethers of any kind. It requires tank tracks with so much "traction" on the air flowing under the vehicle, that they act like wheels. The prop is mounted way up high to get in faster winds, where more thrust is to be had. It starts rolling over water (fully boyant tank tracks), and eventually takes off, but stays close to the surface. It will require some tame water, good winds, and especially witty lightweight engineering, but I believe it can be done.

Offline sparks

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #178 on: August 31, 2010, 02:21:09 AM »
    We always measure wind speed with the assumption that we are fixed and the wind moves by us.  The wind speed when it is calm is moving at a 1000 mph west to east all the time.  As well as 300km/sec  towards the constellation Leo.  We are down wind of Leo and the two of us are heading towards a supercluster of galaxies beyond what is known as the Great Attractor.  The gravity from this dense cluster of matter is pulling the entire Milkyway there.  Since gravity is pretty quick way faster than the speed of light we can assume that this cluster of galaxies is still there even though slowass light is taking forever to get here.  The young cluster of galaxies we are seeing most probably exist as a super blackhole by now long ago gobbling up the hot matter and cooling it down considerably.  Gravity is an accelerating force.  It accelerates stuff aound here a 32feet per second unless you take the moon into account which slows this acceleration down.  Gravity like movement is a relative thing.  The more mass in a given field the more gravity.  To counter all this mother nature in all her wisdom produced antigravity.  This manifests in like charges being repelled.  There is no positive and negative there is just more or less electricity in a substance. The proton is assigned a positive charge.  Why because it has less mass density.  It is quite large compared to the electron yet it has equal charge effect.  This is because it has less mass density.  If it had the same mass density as an electron it would have the same charge state as an electron and would repel the electron.   A blackhole does not gobble up another blackhole.  We see a blackhole gobbling up the less dense matter surrounding the blackhole at the center of each and every star but blackholes are relavent to blackholes.  Once they have stripped the hot stuff it leaves the core of the star which is at the same mass density as the big black hole.  The two black holes then begin to accelerate away from each other on their way to creating new galaxies somewhere else in time and space.  There has to be antigravity or the big bang has to be repeating itself over and over and over again changing just a little bit every time.  Imploding and exploding so damn fast that all we see is minute changes dictated by whatever force is controlling the whole creator frequency.  Of the two sceanarios I would go with antigravity.  At least on the 7th day when the creator takes a snooze.

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Directorly Downwind Faster than the Wind
« Reply #179 on: August 31, 2010, 03:43:29 AM »
This seems like as good a time as any to interject with a Steven Seagal guitar solo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu0BrJksG10

Of course it wouldn't be complete without capping it off with a crystal nugget of Seagalian gravitational wisdom:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxloUBCYuFM


lol


TS
« Last Edit: August 31, 2010, 07:24:56 AM by TechStuf »

 

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