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Author Topic: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma  (Read 291195 times)

gravityblock

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #150 on: January 09, 2010, 09:49:45 AM »
Have a Few Questions and there are so many pages
simply asking might be the fastest way to get answer.

How hot does a faraday disc get?
With eddie currents, or otherwise?

The more load you put on it, the hotter the disc will get.  Eddie currents aren't really an issue if the entire conductive disc is inside the magnetic field.  This is the main reason not to have the diameter of the disc to be much larger than the diameter of the magnet.

How hot do the bearings get?

Does the current have any effect on conductive bearings?

Assuming the bearings aren't part of the circuit then the current won't have any affect on the bearings and they would get hot just like the bearings in all other motors or generators.

Assuming the bearings are part of the circuit then drawing high current could cause the bearings to heat up and weld together.  The bearings in this case would again heat up proportional to the amount of current you are extracting just like the conductive disc.

IMO we need to be focusing on eliminating the counter torque.  Until this is achieved then no OU.  If you want a welding machine or for hydrogen production then go for it.

Here's a few simple ways to increase the voltage:

1)  Increasing the strength of the magnetic field.
2)  Increasing the radii of the magnets and conductive disc.
3)  Increasing the RPM.

A brief side note on the radii of the magnets.  It is extremely difficult and expensive to find a very large radii neo magnet.  You can stack many strong neo magnets in a N/S/N/S/N/S configuration to form a large cylinder magnet and extracting the current on the outside circumference at half the length of the cylinder magnet.

There are other ways to increase the voltage but they are a little more complicated.


GB

Foggy-Notion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #151 on: January 09, 2010, 11:40:40 AM »
Well, if the bearings are metal and on the conductive copper shaft,
then the bearings are technically part of the circuit, no?
That is current is flowing through the shaft,
it will also flow through the bearings,
charged balls will be turing.

Hot based on load?
So I will have a heater (and) HHO for my Hot Water heater, cooking, etc?
Mobile HHO maker for my vehicle?  Hmmmm?

But if magnets spin with the disc, "counter torque" is minimal, if any.
And why would I want to use neodymium (conductive) magnets?
Are we making a magnetic brake, the opposite of what we want?
Ferrite Magnets are the correct magnets for N-Machines.

"There are other ways to increase the voltage but they are a little more complicated."

Oh?  But not a one word helpful hint?  Not even a link eh? 

Well I think I'll just spin 20 discs on one non-conductive shaft
with 40 mages and one tiny motor, and brush wire them all in series
to get as many gains in voltage.

Man you people are everywhere.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 12:33:32 PM by Foggy-Notion »

Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #152 on: January 09, 2010, 12:54:15 PM »
I think that the bearings would make an excellent main shaft electrical contact to replace a brush. Even if it required more than 1 to handle it. The thought that the current going through the small contact points within the bearing races, the heat that can build up, can be negated some due to an always changing contact point.
 Now it would be great if the bearing motor effect worked in a positive direction to turn the gen while acting as brushes.
I wonder if there is a 2 or 4 race bearings as in 2 to 3 rows of bearings, and how much torque it would produce. This bearing motor sounds like it needs high current, and the HP gen produces that.  The bearing I believe can be considered an official HP type except no magnet required, for motor, I cant say gen without a mag.

Ok  so lets add a mag to the bearing motor, will it generate just as it can be a motor?. If we stacked a row of 10 large bearings on a shaft then put a cylinder mag over the bearings , and the mag is magnetized inner dia N and the outer S. Will it be a more powerful bearing motor and a generator?
Then there are roller(pin) bearings.
I dont know if anyone has seen my graphite vids on YT where I remove the grease and work in graphite powder and these things spin dude. Even a dry bearing cannot compare. Not the thinnest oil.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSTfFIetYPY
We have to think that the bearing grease need be removed for good electrical contact, and the graphite fills in the gaps of the imperfect bearing surface, which lessens the resistance compared to a dry bearing to a level of magnitude. So the electrical contact will also be increased as well.
So we consider a copper or aluminum tube that slides over the outer row of bearings on a shaft and an extended portion can have a large bearing slid onto that, to act like a brush for the outer contact, And the big bearing will act as a motor also.  lol this is just silly

Mags

Lot of things to think about. 

Foggy-Notion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #153 on: January 09, 2010, 01:45:16 PM »
Shaft bearings as brushes sounds interesting,
not sure I understood the outer brush idea but it's late.
Any heat can be handled with electrostatic cooling if need be.

gravityblock

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #154 on: January 09, 2010, 01:46:15 PM »
Well, if the bearings are metal and on the conductive copper shaft,
then the bearings are technically part of the circuit, no?
That is current is flowing through the shaft,
it will also flow through the bearings,
charged balls will be turing.

Not if there is a non-conductive insulator between the conductive bearings and conductive shaft.  That is the reason why I gave you both examples.

But if magnets spin with the disc, "counter torque" is minimal, if any.
And why would I want to use neodymium (conductive) magnets?
Are we making a magnetic brake, the opposite of what we want?
Ferrite Magnets are the correct magnets for N-Machines.

There is counter torque when the disc and magnet spin together when drawing current off the disc.  I once thought as you do.  Build it and find out for yourself or use ampere's old force law to do the calculations.  The conductive coating on the neo magnets is the same as having a conductive disc and magnet rotating together on the same axle.  You say the disc and magnet has minimal to no counter torque when they rotate together and then go and say the conductive neo's would be a magnetic brake (that is a big contradiction in your statement).  The strongest and biggest magnet you can find is the correct magnet.  If you don't want to use the conductive coating on the neo's, then put a thin insulating material between the coating of the neo magnet and disc.  A thicker disc would be better than the thin conductive coating on the neo, especially since we're talking about drawing high amps.

"There are other ways to increase the voltage but they are a little more complicated."

Oh?  But not a one word helpful hint?  Not even a link eh? 

Well I think I'll just spin 20 discs on one non-conductive shaft
with 40 mages and one tiny motor, and brush wire them all in series
to get as many gains in voltage.

Man you people are everywhere.

It would be an engineering nightmare with extreme losses to connect all of those discs in series to gain voltage on one shaft if it's not done properly.  Yes, it's easy to connect them in parralel to increase the amps but it's not so easy to connect them in series without the proper setup. You can always use slip rings to extract the current on the axis instead of using the bearings.  Brushes can be totally eliminated on the rim with the right set up by using slip rings to extract the current from each side of the axis.  Please don't tell me it can't be done.  It can be done with the correct setup.

Here are the links to the more complicated methods to increase the voltage without an engineering nightmare.  Just remember, when you increase the voltage you also increase the counter torque by the same ratio when drawing current from the disc.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8409.0
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5662.msg205207#msg205207

You can do it with a halbach array also, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg213451#msg213451 

Use the search feature of this forum for more ideas.  Don't let any tools go to waste.


GB
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 03:12:48 PM by gravityblock »

Foggy-Notion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2010, 12:56:06 AM »

There is counter torque when the disc and magnet spin together when drawing current off the disc.  I once thought as you do.  Build it and find out for yourself or use ampere's old force law to do the calculations. 


I (will) be building it, I (wont) be using your convinient corrupt laws



The conductive coating on the neo magnet is the same as having a conductive disc and magnet rotating together on the same axle. 


It is not the same has having a FERRITE magnet next to a disc.




You say the disc and magnet has minimal to no counter torque when they rotate together and then go and say the conductive neo's would be a magnetic brake (that is a big contradiction in your statement). 



What part of "FERRITE" do you not understand?
You see folks?  He goes on and on pretending he didn't see what I wrote,
(And) goes on and on with misleading advice while trying to sound "expert"




The strongest and biggest magnet you can find is the correct magnet.  If you don't want to use the conductive coating on the neo's, then put a thin insulating material between the coating of the neo magnet and disc. 


No, the correct magnet is the strongest FERRITE magnet you can find.
Don't use a Neo at all, this guy is trying to steer people wrong.


A thicker disc would be better than the thin conductive coating on the neo, especially since we're talking about drawing high amps.
True, but the devil tells some truth to sell some lies.




It would be an engineering nightmare with extreme losses to connect all of those discs in series to gain voltage on one shaft if it's not done properly.


The same could be said for picking one's nose, what is your point? 
You try to make it sound difficult when it is not. 
This guy desperitly does not want us to succeed,
your cover is blown dude.

His Method of Op is to pretend fight with what he calls "Naysayers"
So he looks like one of us, and then steers us wrong when he can.
At least that is the feeling I'm gathering here.
 

gravityblock

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #156 on: January 10, 2010, 02:28:10 AM »
I (will) be building it, I (wont) be using your convinient corrupt laws

It is not the same has having a FERRITE magnet next to a disc.




What part of "FERRITE" do you not understand?
You see folks?  He goes on and on pretending he didn't see what I wrote,
(And) goes on and on with misleading advice while trying to sound "expert"



No, the correct magnet is the strongest FERRITE magnet you can find.
Don't use a Neo at all, this guy is trying to steer people wrong.
True, but the devil tells some truth to sell some lies.


The same could be said for picking one's nose, what is your point? 
You try to make it sound difficult when it is not. 
This guy desperitly does not want us to succeed,
your cover is blown dude.

His Method of Op is to pretend fight with what he calls "Naysayers"
So he looks like one of us, and then steers us wrong when he can.
At least that is the feeling I'm gathering here.

A conductive coating on a neo magnet that is rotating is the same as having a disc glued to a ferrite magnet and rotating together.  Please enlighten and educated us to why a ferrite magnet is better to use than a neo magnet.  Don't tell me it's because the neo has a conductive coating on it and will cause it to act as a magnetic brake, because that is the same as having a conductive disc glued to the ferrite magnet and will act as a magnetic brake just like the neo when you're drawing current.

You have a ferrite magnet with a conductive disc attached to it, then you have a neo magnet with a conductive coating attached to it.  What will be the difference in the results?  Why is a weaker ferrite magnet better than a neo?

I'm an Op because I disagree with you about the neo and ferrite magnets?  LOL.  You asked questions, then after an attempt is given to answer your questions, then all of the sudden you know the answers and I'm an Op.  I won't even try to understand that, because the is very irrational thinking on your part.  You're a homopolar newbie IMO.

This is a good read but I have a feeling it will fall on deaf ears because you won't even consider someone else's view, http://www.andrijar.com/fte/index.html


GB
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 02:48:15 AM by gravityblock »

keithturtle

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2010, 03:06:55 AM »

This is a good read but I have a feeling it will fall on deaf ears because you won't even consider someone else's view, http://www.andrijar.com/fte/index.html

Thanks for the link.   Good stuff.    Indeed, building it will provide some answers, and generate more questions.  Talking about it will only further necessitate building it to provide some answers.

Turtle, building it

Foggy-Notion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2010, 07:15:23 AM »
Ferrite magnets

Hard ferrite (ceramic) magnets were developed in the 1960's as a low cost alternative to metallic magnets. They are made from strontium carbonate and iron oxide both of which are readily available and low in cost.


Key words above?   Ferrites are not considered "Metallic Magnets" though they use some iron particals the particals are not connected to each other, which would allow the magnet to actually cinduct electricity, like a Neo.  We dont want that.  That at least is what I was told.

The positive benefits of ferrite magnets are

• They retain their magnetism for a very long time.

• They have a high stability and do not demagnetise very easily even in high temperatures. ****

• They are relatively low cost to produce.

• They can be manufactured to be flexible, by mixing the ferrite with plasticized rubber compounds, which creates a bendy and pliable magnet.

The main drawback of ferrite magnets is that they are quite fragile and tend to break easily, so they should be handled with care.


Neodymium magnets

Neodymium magnets are also referred to as NdFeB magnets, or NIB, because they are composed mainly of Neodymium (Nd), Iron (Fe) and Boron (B). They are a relatively new invention, first manufactured in 1984 and have only recently become affordable for everyday use.

Neodymium rare earth magnets have a high resistance to demagnetization, unlike most other types of magnets. They will not lose their magnetization around other magnets or if dropped. They will however, begin to lose strength if they are heated above their maximum operating temperature, which is 176°F (80°C)  Thus if your copper or aluminum disc N-machine will get hot according to Moe, he can't have it both ways.

Further more they are conductive solid metal, (not a ceramic-metal mix like Ferrites)  Ferrite (are) a ceramic metal mix, which will not conduct an electrical current, nor create the problems associated with that when it comes to certtain applications.  This spook disinfo agent knows that quite well!  This place gives me the freakin willys.
Even a coated neo exhibits conductive properties, or behavior assiciated with same.

Neodymium magnets also have some limitations due to their corrosion behaviour. In humid applications, a protective coating is highly recommended. Coatings which have been used successfully include E-coat (a liquid dip epoxy coating), dry electrostatic spray epoxy, nickel plating and combinations of these coatings. Changes in composition and processing over the past several years have resulted in significant improvements in corrosion resistance and high temperature performance. 

But such coatings and the magent base itself can also interfere with certain electrical behavior.  It is my understanding that though a Neo is stronger, you want to use Ferrites.




MAGNETIC BRAKING
Roll your Neodymium magnet cylinder down an inclined wooden plane. Now roll it down a piece of aluminum "U"-shaped extrusion (1/2" x 1/2", or whatever size fits your magnet.) The magnet will move much slower in the aluminum. And if you affix a couple of thick aluminum plates to different spots on the extrusion (or even below the wood!) you will see obvious braking effects.
Key word "Neo"
...maybe it is just the stregth, but i know Neos are conductive inside and Ferrite are not.I could be wrong about alll this,,
my advice is to try both and compare results.


FEEL THE DRAG DIRECTLY
Get a thick slab of aluminum or even copper (thicker than 1/4".) Hold an NIB (Neodymium) magnet in your hand and slide it back and forth. You can definitely feel the "syrupy" friction caused by electromagnetic inductive braking effect. If you rub the magnet back and forth for long enough, you will even feel the metal plate's temperature begin to rise. (copper discs or Aluminum disc such as in N-machines will react the same, both being alloys.)
Source: http://amasci.com/amateur/neodymium.html

Copper Losses The power lost in the form of heat in the armature winding of a generator is known as COPPER LOSS. Heat is generated any time current flows in a conductor. Copper loss is an I2R loss, which increases as current increases. The amount of heat generated is also proportional to the resistance of the conductor. The resistance of the conductor varies directly with its length and inversely with its cross- sectional area. Copper loss is minimized in armature windings by using large diameter wire. Q14. What causes copper losses?

Eddy Current Losses The core of a generator armature is made from soft iron, which is a conducting material with desirable magnetic characteristics. Any conductor will have currents induced in it when it is rotated in a magnetic field. These currents that are induced in the generator armature core are called EDDY CURRENTS. The power dissipated in the form of heat, as a result of the eddy currents, is considered a loss. Eddy currents, just like any other electrical currents, are affected by the resistance of the material in which the currents flow.

 
The resistance of any material is inversely proportional to its cross-sectional area. Figure 1-11, view A, shows the eddy currents induced in an armature core that is a solid piece of soft iron. Figure 1-11, view B, shows a soft iron core of the same size, but made up of several small pieces insulated from each other. This process is called lamination.

The currents in each piece of the laminated core are considerably less than in the solid core because the resistance of the pieces is much higher. (Resistance is inversely proportional to cross-sectional area.) The currents in the individual pieces of the laminated core are so small that the sum of the individual currents is much less than the total of eddy currents in the solid iron core.
source: http://www.tpub.com/content/neets/14177/css/14177_24.htm


I'm exhausted from arguing with Oil Company Disinfo Agents, they would destroy the whole earth for a pocket full of gold, which tells you something about their intellifgence, which is why it is so easy to expose them. but yes  after a while one can get paranoid andor just come to expect them, around each corner because after all, that is where they lurk. but you have already said other things that clearly pin you as disinfo in my eyes, If you're not one, than don't take offense.


Good day.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 07:49:55 AM by Foggy-Notion »

gravityblock

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #159 on: January 10, 2010, 09:14:14 AM »
@foggy-Notion:

I'm not a disinfo agent and I do take offense.  I have done extensive research in this area.  I am only sharing with you my own research, experiments, and observations in addition to others on this forum. 

I think you said in a previous post that not much information or research has been done on the HPG/HPM.  This is not true.  The HPG does have OU properties and can be proven mathematically, but the counter torque kills the OU properties. 

Doubling the radii of the disc and magnets increase the output power to the fourth power while the input requirements only increase to the square thereof. 

The problem is the counter torque increases to the fourth power also and this is what needs to be overcome in order to achieve OU.  I would love to be proven wrong on this and I hope it gives you motivation to prove it wrong.  This is my opinion only and you have a right to your own opinion, but don't call me a disinfo agent because our opinions are not the same.

Take care and good luck,

GB

Foggy-Notion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #160 on: January 11, 2010, 02:26:51 AM »
What "Counter Torque"? ha ha ha,
I'll take Tesla's word over yours &
that of the power co. media folks.

As for Neo mags, they conduct electricity,
they are used for homopolar motors like what
you see when someone puts a magnet on a battery
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkU_JmtH3PU

The motor works because the neo magnet conducts electricity.
I don't see them making homopolar motors with Ferrite Mags,
Because it wont work, ferrite magnets don't conduct electricity.

The "Counter Torque" effect is what makes a homopolar 'motor' go.
That is why Farrite Magnets are used for homopolar 'generators',
Because they have no motor effect, no "counter torque"

Non-conductive coating may indeed stop outside conductivity but I'm
just going to try both and see which is best, how's that?

And that Sir, is my opinion.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 03:46:02 AM by Foggy-Notion »

gravityblock

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #161 on: January 11, 2010, 02:14:12 PM »
The motor works because the neo magnet conducts electricity.
I don't see them making homopolar motors with Ferrite Mags,
Because it wont work, ferrite magnets don't conduct electricity.

Gluing a conductive disc to a ferrite magnet is the same as having a conductive coating on a neo magnet.  The conductive coating on the neo magnet replaces the copper disc that could be attached and glued to a ferrite magnet.  If you glued a copper disc to the ferrite magnet, then you could make a homopolar motor with a ferrite magnet.  Why is this so hard for you to understand?  Lol

homopolar motor made from a non-conductive magnet, http://www.andrijar.com/homavi/motor.wmv

Here's additional information on the video, http://www.andrijar.com/homavi/index.html

The "Counter Torque" effect is what makes a homopolar 'motor' go.
That is why Farrite Magnets are used for homopolar 'generators',
Because they have no motor effect, no "counter torque"

A conductive coating on a magnet or a copper disc glued to a magnet will have the same results.  Let's say you put a conductive coating on a ferrite magnet.  Now, how will this conductive ferrite magnet have a different result if there was no conductive coating but instead had a copper disc glued to it?  The results will be the same.  The results will be a counter torque.

In a homopolar generator with a ferrite magnet and a copper disc glued together, it will have the same counter torque as a neo magnet with a conductive coating glued to it.  It doesn't matter if the copper disc and magnet are physically glued together or if they're not physically glued together, they will both be rotating together on the same axle and will have the same results if they're glued together or not.  The magnet, disc, and axle is one piece when they're all rotating together.  This will have the same results as if the disc and magnet were physically glued together or not.   

I can't believe you're not grasping this simple concept, unbelievable.


GB
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 04:01:49 PM by gravityblock »

PaulLowrance

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #162 on: January 11, 2010, 04:43:53 PM »
Thanks for the link.   Good stuff.    Indeed, building it will provide some answers, and generate more questions.  Talking about it will only further necessitate building it to provide some answers.

Turtle, building it

Hi Turtle,

I can hardly wait till you finish! How is going, and how much further to go?

BTW, do you know of a place to get good low prices on good NdFeB magnets?



keithturtle

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #163 on: January 11, 2010, 09:49:55 PM »
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 01:46:34 AM by keithturtle »

CompuTutor

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #164 on: January 12, 2010, 10:47:08 AM »
I'm annoyed,
I wanted to post,
but the friggin pages are a mile wide
on all of my OS's (And IE 6,7,8 +FireFox) I have
because of that pic above being to big I guess...

Or I can scroll left to right for every friggin sentence...

Why does Simple Machine's forum engine do that.
Damn, you think it would crop it to fit...

SUCKS !

Anyway... Keith, The whole row of smaller water jets
adding up to one bigger homogeneous jet has me waiting.
I want to see if an accumulative structure like this works.

When done, and you have a workable setup completed.
I hope you will (Still) have room to entertain one idea.

A ferrous disc on the face of all those magnets
perhaps to disperse the magnetic poles evenly?
I want to see if an increase occurs
from the combines homogeneous accumulation of mag's



Hey Foggy, calm down dude ???  ::)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 12:39:13 PM by CompuTutor »