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Author Topic: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma  (Read 250070 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #285 on: January 02, 2015, 07:48:26 PM »
Mag on foil vid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s56ghlm0oJw&feature=youtu.be

Mags

Hey Mags,

I have watched your video a few times and I noticed an uncertainty in the moving direction of the  magnet when you touched its top with the wire (video time 1:03). The magnet "hesitated" to start up to the right hand direction and first went to the left a few mm, then moved towards the right.
I wonder if this "hesitation" came about because it may depend on which part of the magnet top the wire was touched to: just in the exact center where the Bloch wall is as I indicated in your drawing with the dotted black lines in the attched picture or the moving direction may depend on whether you touch the wire more towards one of the edges of the magnet? (I mean the area between the dotted center line and the pole edges of either the North or the South sides I indicated with a single red and blue line.)
I could not see from the video how much the wire was off from the exact center line or maybe this is not so important? Of course the Bloch wall is but one mm or less in thickness for that cylinder magnet thickness and you may have cared to always touch the wire within that 1 mm thick 'center line' i.e. in the Bloch wall area.

Thanks for showing this interesting phenomena.

Gyula

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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #286 on: January 02, 2015, 10:50:27 PM »
Hi mags

Like you said many believe that field is stationary but im still not satisfied without experimental proof. Experimenting is the only way i can see to end up this mind bogling paradoxes.  If only i have a large magnet i will do that experiment.

There are vid demos that show when 2 disk mags are held apart, in attraction, when one of them is spun, with a drill if I remember correctly, the other did not spin. But, if we allow the test magnet to be free in 2 or 3 dimensions, the magnet as a whole can be moved in many directions, so say a large disk mag is spinning on axis, the fields departing the face of the mag has no affect on a conductor in its path, but if we move the conductor and the mag stationary, the conductor will have current.  In tests I have done, if we small mags mounted to the surface of a coil, each of those fields from the individual mags will not produce current in the coil, as the fields tend to remain as the are, whether the assembly moves through air or spins like an HP motor/gen.

Im sure that if we spin a disk mag on axis, we could sense(hall sensor, small pickup coil) highs n lows in field strength due to imperfections within the magnet, but no apparent dragging of the fields as if the magnet were moved in any other way, other than spinning on its axis.

So myself, if there are no field lines, it kinda has me thinking differently about how the fields induce current in a wire.  More on that later as I gain more understanding on it myself. ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #287 on: January 02, 2015, 11:00:15 PM »
I haven't looked at it this way but this seems completely possible. In fact if you prevent it from sliding and forced it to roll I can't tell how it will even induce a back EMF. Atached is my analysis of such setup. The upper illustration shows the generated forces, the lower images show the 2 different motion cases. Something to ponder on indeed.

Nice illustrations.  ;) Thanks for those

As you show it is like I envision what may be going on.But as I stated to TK, there may be more complex things going on within the mag with currents flowing as we have them. The currents flowing say downward should cause field 'around' the mag in a horizontal plane. I need to make a better axle for the stationary spinning disk so the mag is more free to move. It was snug till it snaps into the plexi frame so it would not jump out. Spins ok, but too much current needed causes damage and very short testing period.

Got a few new ideas for testing, as I will describe in my next reply to Gyula.


Mags

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #287 on: January 02, 2015, 11:00:15 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #288 on: January 02, 2015, 11:12:30 PM »
Hey Mags,

I have watched your video a few times and I noticed an uncertainty in the moving direction of the  magnet when you touched its top with the wire (video time 1:03). The magnet "hesitated" to start up to the right hand direction and first went to the left a few mm, then moved towards the right.
I wonder if this "hesitation" came about because it may depend on which part of the magnet top the wire was touched to: just in the exact center where the Bloch wall is as I indicated in your drawing with the dotted black lines in the attched picture or the moving direction may depend on whether you touch the wire more towards one of the edges of the magnet? (I mean the area between the dotted center line and the pole edges of either the North or the South sides I indicated with a single red and blue line.)
I could not see from the video how much the wire was off from the exact center line or maybe this is not so important? Of course the Bloch wall is but one mm or less in thickness for that cylinder magnet thickness and you may have cared to always touch the wire within that 1 mm thick 'center line' i.e. in the Bloch wall area.

Thanks for showing this interesting phenomena.

Gyula

Hey Gyula

The wire has bad spots on it so at times making contact would not happen. But I do get what you mean. It should be mapped out what effects making contact on the magnet have in different areas.  I got some copper washers that I can press onto the mag where it could be centered or slid to the left or right edge. Also in the foil, set up a little plexi tracking walls to keep the mag straight with a back stop and arrange the wire to contact the mag consistently in particular areas. And some more ideas for free floating and to pivot on edge.  Lots to do. Neat stuff though.

The pendulum didnt do anything.  So as you say, possibly change the positions of the contacts, where possibly they are not directly across the mag, maybe at 1/4 turns. 1/3. etc

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #289 on: January 02, 2015, 11:24:30 PM »
Happy Belated New Years @All


Hi Magluvin,

Thanks for sharing. That is very interesting.

A small test platform could be setup to see if it's sliding or rolling as TK and Broli state.

If the friction is too great for the top rail it can be replaced with a smaller wire with a slight slack to it so it droops and touches the top of the magnet.

If you feed in a bipolar square wave into the rails it should oscillate back and forth.

These all need testing still but it opens some really interesting ideas like a linear homopolar generator.

Hey Dream

Good Idea.  ;)

Probably good to just glue light weight plastic washers to the sides as to not add extra weight to the moving assy. Tk is getting very good rotation with 6 amps. My 4 AAs are pumping an even 4 amps, just to get it moving as shown. The 12v 12ah agm, things happen too fast to see what happened at times.   :o ;D

Mags

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #289 on: January 02, 2015, 11:24:30 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #290 on: January 02, 2015, 11:34:42 PM »
One thing that gets me. We see these AA batt/mag with the wire rotating around, then the mag spin on its own where the field of the wire contacts dont seem to be part of the equation. The spinning wire has pretty much no torque, but the mag under the same arrangement does have torque. Even with the wire in a completely different orientation, the mag seems to spin just as well. ??? ;D   So when the magnet is stationary under the battery, is there a field altering of the mag according to where the wire is contacting the outer edge of the mag and possibly changing that position in reference to where the outer wire is make a difference in how well the wire spins or not so well? :)   All kinds of things are popping in the brain.  :o :o ;D

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #291 on: January 02, 2015, 11:38:37 PM »
Hi mags

Like you said many believe that field is stationary but im still not satisfied without experimental proof. Experimenting is the only way i can see to end up this mind bogling paradoxes.  If only i have a large magnet i will do that experiment.

I have a setup I plan to make that will show if the disk mag can spin or be stationary. Trying both ways. Will show when I figure out all the details.

Mags

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #291 on: January 02, 2015, 11:38:37 PM »
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Offline ElectricPirate

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #292 on: January 03, 2015, 09:08:18 AM »
There are vid demos that show when 2 disk mags are held apart, in attraction, when one of them is spun, with a drill if I remember correctly, the other did not spin. But, if we allow the test magnet to be free in 2 or 3 dimensions, the magnet as a whole can be moved in many directions, so say a large disk mag is spinning on axis, the fields departing the face of the mag has no affect on a conductor in its path, but if we move the conductor and the mag stationary, the conductor will have current.  In tests I have done, if we small mags mounted to the surface of a coil, each of those fields from the individual mags will not produce current in the coil, as the fields tend to remain as the are, whether the assembly moves through air or spins like an HP motor/gen.

Im sure that if we spin a disk mag on axis, we could sense(hall sensor, small pickup coil) highs n lows in field strength due to imperfections within the magnet, but no apparent dragging of the fields as if the magnet were moved in any other way, other than spinning on its axis.

So myself, if there are no field lines, it kinda has me thinking differently about how the fields induce current in a wire.  More on that later as I gain more understanding on it myself. ;)

Mags

I also watched that video but still im not convinced. What if the magnetic field is a flow of particle or ether? Thus rotating the magnet will only create particle vortex and this woundnt affect the other magnet. Back to your video, can you make a picture with a current direction and polarity of magnet. I like to know this because there is still unsolved question here. Why would the magnet changes its rolling direction if the wire is touched to the center of the magnet?

Offline ElectricPirate

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #293 on: January 03, 2015, 09:13:36 AM »
I have a setup I plan to make that will show if the disk mag can spin or be stationary. Trying both ways. Will show when I figure out all the details.

Mags

Okey, I will wait for this...  I hope you discover again something different.. :D

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #293 on: January 03, 2015, 09:13:36 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #294 on: January 03, 2015, 02:39:12 PM »
Quote from: Mags
So myself, if there are no field lines, it kinda has me thinking differently about how the fields induce current in a wire.

It all depends on what you mean by " are ".   ;)

Magnetic field lines have the same kind of reality as elevation contour lines on a topographic map of terrain. They are convenient mathematical fictions that allow us to describe consistently the direction and the strength of how "test particles" would move in the presence of magnetism. Just as a road really goes nowhere, but we travel along a road, field lines don't represent a "flow" of  magnetism, they simply represent strength and direction of how other things would "flow" in the field. The concept of the field is itself a metaphor, a very useful one.
On a topo map, when the contour lines are close together you know that there is a steep slope in the reality and a ball, for example, would roll in a particular direction (at right angles to the lines and in the direction of lower elevation) and speed (fast where they are close). If the contour lines are far apart, the real place is flat or nearly so and the ball will roll slowly if at all ... but still at right angles to the contour lines.
And just as a standard topo map has contour lines that are well defined (as to the elevation change represented by successive lines) so too does a magnetic field line have a specific definition in terms of mathematical relationships between the quantities of the field and the test particle. 

Tesla's "rotating magnetic field" is of course composed of stationary fields from separate coils, energized in sequence around a circle. A "test particle" like the Egg of Columbus rotates because it is following the sequence of stationary fields made by the separate coils as they are energized in the rotational sequence. The fields themselves do not rotate. Tesla used 4 coils driven by 2-phase AC in his demonstration to produce the "rotating" total field, but the field no more rotates than would LEDs blinking rapidly in a circular sequence.

ETA: Tom Valone did a very interesting experiment that he talks about in the Homopolar Handbook. He actually mounted a simple LED voltmeter arrangement directly to the disk of a homopolar dynamo, connected at the center and the edge. He found that when the voltmeter rotated along with the disk, he could detect no voltage generated. But when the voltmeter was stationary in the laboratory reference frame, connected by the usual radial and axial brushes, he did detect voltage from the rotating dynamo.

Offline broli

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #295 on: January 04, 2015, 06:16:55 PM »
ETA: Tom Valone did a very interesting experiment that he talks about in the Homopolar Handbook. He actually mounted a simple LED voltmeter arrangement directly to the disk of a homopolar dynamo, connected at the center and the edge. He found that when the voltmeter rotated along with the disk, he could detect no voltage generated. But when the voltmeter was stationary in the laboratory reference frame, connected by the usual radial and axial brushes, he did detect voltage from the rotating dynamo.

This is kind of a flawed experiment, a volt meter is not the correct device to measure the electric field in the rotating frame. A voltmeter needs a closed loop circuit to do its thing. Rotating an entire closed looped circuit elliminates any induced voltage ergo the experiment proves that a voltage cannot be generated when the entire circuit is rotated.

A corrected experiment would use a sensitive electrostatic probe rather than a run of the mill volt meter. The reason is that when the disc is rotated the voltage induced will push charge to the rimm/center which causes a measurable electrostatic field in the vicinity. However commercial electrostatic probes are not meant to measure mV to 1V fields. Perhaps there's an IC circuit out there that does?

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #295 on: January 04, 2015, 06:16:55 PM »
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Offline life is illusion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #296 on: January 06, 2015, 03:38:44 PM »
Hi :)

I watched the following educational video (from 3:55) and I thought this design MIGHT help to increase the output power of N machine. As you know the length of wire determines the voltage output and I believe the girth of wire will determine the current output. I think the reason for N machine to have high current and low voltage is a short distance between the rotor and edge of the copper disk and high current is cause by the thickness of the disk. The rotation cases the electrons to move from the center of the disk towards the edge (according to Fleming's left hand law). So I decided to use a solenoid, locate two magnets on one of the edges of the solenoid and rotate the solenoid around its Y axis. The same Fleming's left had law will push the electrons from the left hand corner of solenoid towards the right hand side and that is exactly what we need: Movement of electron in a long and thick copper wire. Please let me know what you think :)

Just to make it clear, I mean the magnets are going to be attached to the solenoid and solenoid is attached to the shaft of motor and solenoid, shaft and magnets all spin at the same time!

Here is the educational video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPUii-lwbFU&list=PL1yp1jmMk_BZ1eTVAL_YXmqM7wznFDLN5&index=1

Best Regards
Sam
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 06:06:36 PM by life is illusion »

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #297 on: January 14, 2015, 08:38:02 PM »
No one wanna tell me "its not going to work"? I'm really disappointed. Not even MileHigh? :D Come on guys, tell me its not going to work, Otherwise I might think OU is possible ;)

Offline ariovaldo

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #298 on: January 15, 2015, 02:08:15 PM »
Hi :)

I watched the following educational video (from 3:55) and I thought this design MIGHT help to increase the output power of N machine. As you know the length of wire determines the voltage output and I believe the girth of wire will determine the current output. I think the reason for N machine to have high current and low voltage is a short distance between the rotor and edge of the copper disk and high current is cause by the thickness of the disk. The rotation cases the electrons to move from the center of the disk towards the edge (according to Fleming's left hand law). So I decided to use a solenoid, locate two magnets on one of the edges of the solenoid and rotate the solenoid around its Y axis. The same Fleming's left had law will push the electrons from the left hand corner of solenoid towards the right hand side and that is exactly what we need: Movement of electron in a long and thick copper wire. Please let me know what you think :)

Just to make it clear, I mean the magnets are going to be attached to the solenoid and solenoid is attached to the shaft of motor and solenoid, shaft and magnets all spin at the same time!

Here is the educational video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPUii-lwbFU&list=PL1yp1jmMk_BZ1eTVAL_YXmqM7wznFDLN5&index=1

Best Regards
Sam


Good Morning Sam!
I've been thinking about that since I tried my first replication. As you said, if we can make the distance between the center until the edge of the disk "longer", probably we can get the voltage higher. I'm in the middle of other project, but I'm planing to build a device to test this thesis.
Ariovaldo

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #299 on: January 15, 2015, 08:27:47 PM »

Good Morning Sam!
I've been thinking about that since I tried my first replication. As you said, if we can make the distance between the center until the edge of the disk "longer", probably we can get the voltage higher. I'm in the middle of other project, but I'm planing to build a device to test this thesis.
Ariovaldo

Hi Ariovaldo :)
Thanks for replying my friend. Good luck with the project that you are working on. I find N machine a very interesting setup and I hope we can make something out of it :)

Best Regards
Sam

 

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