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Author Topic: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma  (Read 291147 times)

ashg

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #255 on: April 06, 2014, 07:57:18 AM »
Paul R : I thought that the essence is the word "opposes".
"An induced emf always gives rise to a current whose magnetic field opposes the original change in magnetic flux".
 
Yes but the term "opposes" does not specify whether the the fields are truly anti-parallel and the back torque generated by such current acts directed against the action giving rise to the induced EMF.
 
The simplest open magnetic circuit  Homopolar generators have the unique charcteristic that the disc and magnet (permanent or electro & symetrically concentric) spin in a stationary field where the magnetic forces generated by the radial current in the disc and  in the external circuit apply forces transmitted through the open path magnetic flux. 
 
Its now well established (De Palma Sunburst, Trombly-Kahan, Tewari and us) that under the right magnetic circuit conditions the normally expected generator back torque on the drive motor from current generation through the disc can be substantially reduced. To that effect the homopolar can be classed as a reduced Lenz force type generator.  Generally speaking the mechanisim of back torque reduction and its engineering and optimisation have had little explanation or recognition in the public domain, to that effect that some designs of homopolar OU generators have not performed as desired.  That's exactly what we experienced. One machine had a 10% reduction in back torque and could not be classed as outside experimental error the other showed a 235% reduction in back torque which was physically obvious because the effect could be observed with shifting of the heavy output circuit cables, when the motor would speed up and the output would increase. Every homopolar machine design for reduced Lenz force, will have different performance characteristics. That happened for us and Bruce Deplama, with the Sunburst configuration working well but others not so well.  It was not necessarily the one-piece nature (magnet and disc co-rotating) of the design that caused the reduction in back torque but the physical geometry of the stationary part of the circuit and that is where the Lenz force reduction action happens. The inertial nature of the magnetic field must also play a role in this and that is not to say that there may be other conditions discovered that are essential to gain the best reduction in back-torque as well. More experimentation will confirm that but these are not cheap machines to build and experiment with and the low voltage and high current can provide some great technical challenges.
 
Ashg
 

 

keithturtle

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #256 on: April 07, 2014, 06:32:11 AM »
Thanks for sharing your insights, ashg.  Sounds like you could save me lots of legwork, your having already covered the ground I am just now treading.  Maybe we could compare notes.

The units I am building don't have very tight tolerances.  I think that getting the copper very very close to the magnets will be key to extracting that tight, high energy spin at the corners, like Howard Johnson mentions, IDK.  Of course I don't know.  If I did I wouldn't be doing this.

So Trombly ain't allowed to speak, eh?   Imagine that.
" More experimentation will confirm that but these are not cheap machines to build and experiment with and the low voltage and high current can provide some great technical challenges."  Amen to that, brother.

I still haven't got my units spinning yet.   No matter, they probably won't produce any earth-shattering results

Turtle, really slow

ggx9

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #257 on: October 18, 2014, 08:54:42 AM »
No posting for 6 months?
Hey, Turtle, after reading through much of the last 18 pages it looks like you've been around here for awhile. How is your progress?
I first heard of the N machine in the early 80's and have made some components in order to learn how it is supposed to work.
In addition to my machine shop work I have spent an enormous number of hours in study, calculations and other paperwork exercises. I have not yet attempted to duplicate the 13 1/4" diameter Sunburst machine.
Before this effort I had a background in electronics and then went on to study magnetics and the math formulas for burst RPM of flywheels. Anyone seriously interested in building one of these machines would do well to understand these formulas so you can get an idea on which parameters need to be idealized for best results. The math is fairly simple for the voltage output to be expected, the bursting speed of a flywheel and the maximum current output and why these factors have the effects that they do.
The biggest obstacle, if used, are the carbon brushes. They have mechanical drag like disk brakes on a car which turns into heat which creates several other problems. They have a voltage loss across the sliding interface with the metal surface they ride on and they have a voltage loss through the carbon itself which is not nearly as conductive as copper. The liquid brush (pure gallium or with an alloy) or the conductive belt is a must, in my opinion. The series of 18 youtube videos includes some shots of a liquid metal machine.
Precision machining and balancing along with a strong and rigid frame are essential to avoid destructive vibration through the necessarily wide RPM range. While it may not be appropriate for the  final product, a three phase motor running on a variable speed drive would be a great convenience for testing. Their prices have come way down and a unit with single phase input is available if you don't have three phase power available at your workshop.
To convert to high power (20Kw and up) of conventional 60Hz AC I would couple (on the same shaft) the N machine to a Faraday motor of similar construction (motor with magnet stationary) to provide rotating force and gear it down to a low speed 3600 or 1800 RPM AC generator, something like a gas turbine generator set due to the high RPM of the turbine and N machine.
I would like to get plans for that liquid metal N machine in the Youtube video as my next project and from there go to a large home power unit. Does anyone have more information on that machine?

tinman

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #258 on: October 18, 2014, 11:30:17 AM »
Funny thing that this thread got a kick in the pants again today,as i was just discusing this on the magnet myth's thread.

Some intersting statements being made throughout this thread.
E.G-From Gravityblock-Electrons can also flow from the rim to the axis depending on the direction of rotation and what magnetic pole the disc is rotating through.

What magnetic pole the disk is rotating through ???
It rotates through a neutral field regardless which way the magnets are orientated-see pic below.North one side of the disk,and south the other side. This must mean a field flow direction through the disk-but they say nothing flows from north pole to south pole,or vice-versa.

Then there is talk that it is the electric field that causes the current flow-there is an imaginary wire created between the brush on the outer rim and the center brush on the shaft through the copper disk ???. OK,cool-where did this electric field come from if there was no current flow to create it in the first place?

Current must start to flow before an electric field is produced-in this case the egg comes before the chicken. Also a voltage can be measured across the disk radius before current is drawn from the HPG-->the open voltage.

I really think this deserve continued reserch,as i dont think it has yet been discovered exactly what is going on in a HPG. This will only come when you know exactly what and how magnetic fields are and work.So i think the sister thread for this thread should be the magnetic myths and misconceptions thread- http://www.overunity.com/14974/magnet-myths-and-misconceptions/msg420334/#new

ingyenenergiagep

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #259 on: October 18, 2014, 02:55:24 PM »
U can use the disc generator for hydrogen generating from water.

mscoffman

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #260 on: October 18, 2014, 03:23:01 PM »

Unlike a normal generator I believe the outer rim of a homopolar generator will always be negative polarity
independent of the direction of the disk rotation. And it is one way to tell whether the unit is homopolar
internally or not.

This is because in a homopolar generator the mobile charge carrier are the electrons. It is as if electron mass comes under the
influence of centrifugal force and they get flung outward toward the disk edges. It's always the mobile electrons which are
being flung. This helps one see why the magnets can be rotated with or not the main disk in a homopolar generator.
This is also the reason why one needs brushes or gears that are fixed to the non-centrifugal reference frame for it to
work.

A wire from the edge of the rotor to the center operating inside the magnetic field will show the same voltage gradient
as the disk and without a voltage difference no current can therefore flow.

The direction of the flux path is curved differently dependent on the direction of rotation. I believe if you have curved slots cut
in the disk, the disk will be different impedances dependent on direction of rotation.

By and large failure to produce homopolar generators are because the flux across the disk needs to be monolithic across the
entire disk-face from center to edges. This means a giant "C" shaped magnet generally to conduct the other flux polarity
outside the disk.

Arrays of powerful magnets allow some flux leakage between magnets. This allows electrons to form eddy current loops
in the disk before the electrons get to the edge.

:S:MarkSCoffman




tinman

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #261 on: October 18, 2014, 03:59:36 PM »
Unlike a normal generator I believe the outer rim of a homopolar generator will always be negative polarity
independent of the direction of the disk rotation. And it is one way to tell whether the unit is homopolar
internally or not.

This is because in a homopolar generator the mobile charge carrier are the electrons. It is as if electron mass comes under the
influence of centrifugal force and they get flung outward toward the disk edges. It's always the mobile electrons which are
being flung. This helps one see why the magnets can be rotated with or not the main disk in a homopolar generator.
This is also the reason why one needs brushes or gears that are fixed to the non-centrifugal reference frame for it to
work.

A wire from the edge of the rotor to the center operating inside the magnetic field will show the same voltage gradient
as the disk and without a voltage difference no current can therefore flow.

The direction of the flux path is curved differently dependent on the direction of rotation. I believe if you have curved slots cut
in the disk, the disk will be different impedances dependent on direction of rotation.

By and large failure to produce homopolar generators are because the flux across the disk needs to be monolithic across the
entire disk-face from center to edges. This means a giant "C" shaped magnet generally to conduct the other flux polarity
outside the disk.

Arrays of powerful magnets allow some flux leakage between magnets. This allows electrons to form eddy current loops
in the disk before the electrons get to the edge.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Quote: Unlike a normal generator I believe the outer rim of a homopolar generator will always be negative polarity
Mark-if you reverse the direction of rotation of the disk,the polarity changes-this is a know fact.

Quote: This is because in a homopolar generator the mobile charge carrier are the electrons. It is as if electron mass comes under the
influence of centrifugal force and they get flung outward toward the disk edges.

Electron flow is from negative to positive,so if the outer rim was the negative potential,then the electrons would be flowing against the centrifugal force-toward the center of the disk(positive).
The polarity of the voltage can also be changed by changing the magnetic field polarity on each side of the disk-this is also another know fact.

Dave45

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #262 on: October 18, 2014, 04:22:15 PM »
Can it be built solid state.

keithturtle

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #263 on: October 19, 2014, 02:05:10 AM »

Hey, Turtle, after reading through much of the last 18 pages it looks like you've been around here for awhile. How is your progress?

Yeah, it's the same place it was in April... stalled.

Not that I don't want to work with it, I just see the need to get some "proven" alternative energy stuff together in case SHTF.

I've got a real effective rocket stove going (Gabe Apostal's design), and some solar PV/hydrogen stuff coming together as well.

No doubt what you say about understanding the critical values and physics will play huge into success of this design; my "TLAR" (that looks about right) engineering approach falls well short of the true science.  I'm not at all well versed in higher math, though I grasp the basic concepts of magnetic interaction that we have at work in this homopolar device.

I think there is merit to the solid-state idea.

Firewood and neanderthal-science take priority at the moment.  When survival is the order of the day, having the right [marketable] stuff ready takes precedence over replicating DePalma.  There's only so many hours in a day.

Thanks for your interest

Turtle, keeping warm
 
 

Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #264 on: December 31, 2014, 04:26:13 AM »
Been doing some experiments and found something interesting.

Below are 2 pics. Didnt have the camera at the shop, so I threw together 3d pics.

The pics show aluminum foil on a flat surface and a neo disk magnet, magnetized through length. Best if using 1/4in or more so it can roll without falling over. My 3/4in x  1/8in disks fall over or want to spin like a strong compass because of earths mag field when setting them up on edge.  On the foil, thicker mags have a harder time spinning on edge so we can concentrate on the rolling.

The orange object depicts a solid copper wire 20awg or so, with bent end so the smooth outer elbow can contact the magnet with least drag on the magnets surface. Or something non magnetic.

I used 4 AA batts in series connecting one end to the foil, and one end of the batt pack to the wire, at the end that is not near the magnet, in case you use alligator leads to make connections.


In pic 1, depending on the magnet polarity and battery polarity, when the wire touches the top of the magnet, the magnet will roll in one direction. Reverse either the battery or the magnet, the magnet will roll the other direction.

In pic 2, if you touch the wire to the center of the circular side of the magnet, the magnet will roll in the opposite direction as when contacting the top of the magnet, with battery and magnet of the same polarity in each case. Also, if you touch the wire to the other side of the magnet(pic 2), it will roll the same direction as when contacting the side shown in pic 2.

So, contact the top, and the mag moves say left, and contact the center of either side(pic 2) the magnet will roll right.

The interesting part is, it doesnt matter the orientation of the magnet on the foil, or the orientation of the wire in respect to the magnet. So its not the field from current 'direction' in the foil with respect to where the magnet is on the foil and where the battery pack is connected on the edge of the foil.  As long as current flows through the magnet(pic 1) either up from the bottom of the magnet, or down, the magnet will move on its own, without outside magnetic field influence.

More isolated tests to come. ;) As in, is the magnet 'rolling' (spinning) because of the current flow through the magnet, or, is the magnet as a whole 'forced' in that direction, and the roll is due to friction on the foil? :o :o ;) ;D   A coil-less pulse motor with just mags on a rotor and top and bottom contacts?  ??? ;)

Clearly if we change the orientation of how the wire beyond the contact point of the magnet back to the battery, we might expect different angles or even perpendicular from the magnets contact point to affect which way it might roll, or even how strong a roll. Also we might expect a different roll direction if we moved the battery contact to the foil to the opposite outer edge of the foil due to fields developed in the foil from current flow to the bottom rolling edge of the magnet. But no matter the external orientations of external conductors, the mag rolls the same direction as long as mag and electrical polarities are consistent. If the wire is parallel to the contact surface, the field of the wire can cause a little twisting of the mag as it rolls, but still rolls the same.

So, the point is, when the magnet rolls, what is it pushing against(and or pulling towards) if the conductors fields seem to not be in effect when it comes to the magnet rolling with current flowing through it?  Its a strong roll. Like a coil was pulsed near it.

If any of you have these items to try yourselves, please chime in on what you think.  I dont get why the mag rolls in the opposite direction when contacting the top or the sides of the magnet, yet. I used 4 AA in series to show nice moving effects without burning the magnets surface badly, as I did with a 12v 12ah agm batt.  ;D Use safety goggles if wandering into the higher voltage/current sources.  ;) 1 AA doesnt really get it going. Just a little jiggle. ;D   

I tested the raw neo material of a broken like magnet for continuity, and it measures the same low ohms as the nickle shell coating, .00 ohms Wavetek 2030.  So the magnet as a whole is conducting the currents, not just the outer coating.

Will be back for more on what I think about this in a bit. And also another test I did.

Mags


Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #265 on: December 31, 2014, 06:12:57 AM »
What got me started on this was the paradox.  A while back actually is when I started pondering it, as I have posted here before.

Was looking at homopolar motors on YT, the ones with AA batt with magnet and spinning copper wire.

One of the vids, the guy had a small mag on the top of the batt and a larger disk on the bottom, and the batt/mags hung magnetically from the top magnet so the batt/mag could spin freely, and the bottom mag was contacted on the outer edge of the mag. The whole battery/mags assy was spinning. So I decided to test magnets without the battery mass attached.

I have some roller pin bearings of different sizes from car axle and transmission bearings, bunches of sizes, and used 2 small ones to make an axis in which to have a disk mag(3/4x1/8 disk) be able to spin. Centered the 2 pin bearings on the mag, both sides, and applied a bit of super glue to hold in place along with the mag holding them.  Made a simple base and it spins ok. When I applied power to a pin and the outer mag edge, it spins. So, a simple traditional homopolar with the mag playing the magnet and disk all in one.  lol, this is where I went up to using the 12v batt and it spun fast, but the outer edge of the mag got burned up pretty fast. At least it worked.  And you can make the connection to either pin axle and it would spin the same direction. So both could be used as electrical contacts to make better connections. Would be nice to have a large thin disk mag with a hole in the middle to make an actual ball bearing axle. Larger diameter should have more torque.


The contact areas between the mag and pins had blackened around the edges under the clear super glue after running as the contact wasnt perfect for high currents there. But again, it worked and I moved on to the previous post tests, which were more defining of what actions occured and possibilities of what causes the actions.

The new tests I have devised from these previous tests will take this to the next level. What Im looking for at the moment is not power generation possibilities, yet, but going the motor route to get a grip on what is going on with different configurations other than the traditional disk setups.

Mags


broli

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #266 on: December 31, 2014, 07:14:14 PM »
I would find it very strange if your first rendering actually caused the magnet to rotate. This would mean an instant violation of many things. Can you show the experiment?

Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #267 on: January 01, 2015, 12:58:33 AM »
I would find it very strange if your first rendering actually caused the magnet to rotate. This would mean an instant violation of many things. Can you show the experiment?

Hey Broli

I have all day tomorrow to do some more experiments and Ill do a vid or 2.

Not sure if it violates anything. But I find it strange also.

One new test i plan is to have the magnet at the bottom of a pendulum swing arm, with twisted pair wires running down the arm from the upper pivot point. Would be odd and strange if the pendulum arm moves.  ;D ;)

Mags

ramset

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #268 on: January 01, 2015, 01:58:57 AM »
Mags
thanks for sharing these most intriguing thoughts and very simple observations/experiments...
I like your images too..


see you next year !  ;D


thx
Chet


Magluvin

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Re: Homopolar Generators (N-Machine) by Bruce de Palma
« Reply #269 on: January 01, 2015, 02:40:38 AM »
Happy new year Chet, and all.   ;D

Mags