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Author Topic: "Smoking Gun" - finally!  (Read 31385 times)

Offline tinu

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2008, 12:50:08 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode
The Shockley ideal diode equation or the diode law is derived with the assumption that the only processes giving rise to current in the diode are drift (due to electrical field), diffusion, and thermal recombination-generation. It also assumes that the recombination-generation (R-G) current in the depletion region is insignificant. This means that the Shockley equation doesn’t account for the processes involved in reverse breakdown and photon-assisted R-G. Additionally, it doesn’t describe the “leveling off” of the I–V curve at high forward bias due to internal resistance.

There are many more assumptions, although subtler. Approximations are different. Need a reference? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/approximation
Anyway, this is basics in solid-state physics. You really didn’t know it or just pretended for the sake of your unborn but beloved child?

Now, please don’t throw with math if you don’t know what’s behind equations. As you say it is ‘dirty stuff’ and although I do not agree, I’d add it really pollute physics when missused, as one can see.
Still a diode cooling itself to 0K (thermal insulated, obvious to everyone although apparently not to you) is something nature stubbornly refuses to amaze us.

It’s pointless to go on. I’m out and hand waving.
But good luck, anyway!

Cheers,
Tinu

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #75 on: December 11, 2008, 12:50:08 AM »

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #76 on: December 11, 2008, 01:55:16 AM »
Where's your math?  ;)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diode
The Shockley ideal diode equation or the diode law is derived with the assumption that the only processes giving rise to current in the diode are drift (due to electrical field), diffusion, and thermal recombination-generation. It also assumes that the recombination-generation (R-G) current in the depletion region is insignificant. This means that the Shockley equation doesn’t account for the processes involved in reverse breakdown and photon-assisted R-G. Additionally, it doesn’t describe the “leveling off” of the I–V curve at high forward bias due to internal resistance.
Your above text is a quote from wikipedia. There's no assumption about the diode equation. I am using Schottky diodes, and it would be incorrect to say that it's an *assumption* the RG current is insignificant. In terms of Schottky diodes, it is a fact. Please read about Schottky diodes and recombination -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode

It is not included in the equation because it is so insignificant. Like I said, it is an *approximation*, not an *assumption*.  There's no assuming the RG is insignificant in my Schottky diodes. It's a fact.


There are many more assumptions, although subtler. Approximations are different. Need a reference? http://www.thefreedictionary.com/approximation
There are countless known effects. Inductance is an example. Gravity is another example. Tinu, they are insignificant. All physics equations are approximations. It would require an encyclopedia to write down a mathematical equation that considered every single thing that effected the diode. The same applies to the laws of thermodynamics. So what? If you know of a more accurate semiconductor equation then by all means show us. Including RG in the equations is not going to make any difference in terms of diodes rectifying thermal noise.


So where's your math showing how a diode will handle the thermal energy? Physics is not about being 100% perfect. There is no such thing as the *prefect* 100% accurate equation-- as stated, not in semiconductor math or thermodynamics math.  It makes no difference in the result. Diodes rectify thermal energy. It is a know experimental fact that thermal energy causes noise current through the diodes depletion region. So if the diode equation predicts 5e-6 amps, and if you include RG current to make it say 5.00001e-6 amps, then so what? The noise current still flows through the diode. The diode is still a dynamic resistor.


PL

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #77 on: December 11, 2008, 02:16:34 AM »
To sum this up, what tinu is saying is pointless. It goes without saying that no mathematical model considers every known effect. Gravity has an effect on the diode. So what?

Tinu has not shown any mathematics that predicts diode behavior with thermal noise. He cannot improve upon the present small signal diode modeling mathematics. It is well known that the recombination and generation in Schottky diodes is insignificant.  Virginia diodes performed measurements on their zero bias diode that clearly shows the diode produces thermal noise in agreement with the predicted values. Sorry tinu, but it's a known fact thermal AC noise current is continuously flowing in a passive diode all by itself. There's your AC noise current. There's your rectification resulting in a DC potential. It's a known fact that the diodes dynamic resistance changes with any change in current-- diode square law. I've verified the diode square law a bit below 1uV, where the diode showed no signs of magically switching from rectification to zero rectification. The diode square law is a live and well. The rectification is relative to the square of the AC noise.

If you doubt a diode does not produce AC noise, then read up, because it was proven with the Virginia Diodes Inc. diode -->

http://www.virginiadiodes.com/VDI/pdf/VDI%20Detector%20Char%20ISSTT2007.pdf


AC current flows through diodes due to thermal noise. The diode square law is well proven to rectify noise below 1uV.  The total Johnson noise, AC, flowing through my SMS7630 diodes @ RT is equal to the kTC noise, which is sqrt(k 300 / 0.14p) = 172 uV.

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #77 on: December 11, 2008, 02:16:34 AM »
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Offline wm_carr

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #78 on: December 11, 2008, 05:11:48 AM »
Just wondering... Could these diodes be made by screenprinting?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2008, 05:44:24 AM »
I don't see why not, but I've never heard of screenprinting being used for semiconductor fabrication. The common method is to use an ultra thin coating photoresist that is spun on the wafer. Then UV light that shines through a mask lifts the photoresist, which is easily removed. And from there, either deposition or etching is performed.

IMO the photoresist route is a bit much for a low budget garage project, which is why I propose a somewhat older method of using the mask in combination with deposition. You can see an animation I created -->

Watch carefully, as the animation actually changes, albeit at a slow rate:
http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?topic=18.msg90#msg90

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #79 on: December 11, 2008, 05:44:24 AM »
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Offline spinner

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #80 on: December 12, 2008, 12:28:06 AM »
I'm with @tinu on this,,,,  No offence...

IIt's obvious you made a good attempt at theoretical and practical attempts at building the diode array capable of producing what you claim...
But this is an "old" theritory  (please, look at the history...).... I hope you're aware of all the previous attempts (have you read all the posts from, for instance,  Charlie Brown?). How about the other claims from the history, the last 30, 40 years....? Semiconductors... and the  "Maxwellian Daemon"?....

Even if there realy "is something", it must be minuscule... Otherwise, it would be noticed a long time ago... Your prototype diode array "DC readings" are confirming this...

How did you came to the 18kW/m2 number??? Or, the trillions of diodes number??? When was a billion of semiconductor parts limit (on a single chip) acchieved?
What's with the few pV bias Voltage? Where is all the power/energy? Who said your array gets cold? The 2'nd LoT is broken? Really?  ;D
What's next? The 1'st one?
How about the proof?

Why is the simple proof allways the hard part???
???



 

Offline broli

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2008, 12:55:09 AM »


Why is the simple proof allways the hard part???
???


The proof is in front of you oh blind one. There's a difference between wanting more proof and denying the truth. With the latter all the proof in the world will never stratify you.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #81 on: December 12, 2008, 12:55:09 AM »
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Offline spinner

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #82 on: December 12, 2008, 01:12:05 AM »
The proof is in front of you oh blind one. There's a difference between wanting more proof and denying the truth. With the latter all the proof in the world will never stratify you.
;D
Oh, lucky you... You see the proof somewhere? And the little green people?

WHERE IS THE PROOF? A picoAmperes, MegaOhms, nanoJoules, ...Where?

Is it hidden in someone's theory? I have plenty of my own theories, thanks...

Am I the blind one? 8)


Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2008, 01:31:00 AM »
spinner,

I'll offer you same the challenge. Show the math.

And I'll offer you the same challenge that I've offered every skeptic --> Have any reputable scientist test my device. I live in Southern California, USA.

For any skeptic who's so sure of their understanding of convention physics, then accept my old challenge --> Lets make a legal business deal. If I'm correct, then you buy it. If I'm wrong, then I'll buy your product. Surely you want to make some $. Lets see how confident the skeptics are.

Sorry to disappoint the skeptics, but the best available mathematics clearly predicts the diode must rectify thermal noise.

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #83 on: December 12, 2008, 01:31:00 AM »
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Offline Charlie_V

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #84 on: December 12, 2008, 02:27:16 AM »
Quote
Sorry to disappoint the skeptics, but the best available mathematics clearly predicts the diode must rectify thermal noise.

Yep, I think it is possible.  Look up an electron ratchet - they could have a similar effect as well. 

Offline TechStuf

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2008, 02:37:38 AM »

If we could rectify all of the collective outgasing of naysayers, the world be brimming with cheap power, and it'd be more peaceful and quieter too....



TS

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #85 on: December 12, 2008, 02:37:38 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #86 on: December 12, 2008, 06:44:54 AM »
I hope you're aware of all the previous attempts (have you read all the posts from, for instance,  Charlie Brown?).
Lets make this real. I built four diode arrays. Charles M. Brown had three diode arrays built. Tom Schum built one diode array. That's a total of eight diode arrays. In all eight diode arrays, the voltage meter showed a DC voltage. That's eight for eight. That should give humanity some hope. :)



Even if there realy "is something", it must be minuscule... Otherwise, it would be noticed a long time ago... Your prototype diode array "DC readings" are confirming this...
That's why we need a lot of diodes, and it is possible with present technology, and could be affordable, but make no mistake that natural ambient thermal energy density in matter at root temperature is vast. The total energy per degree of freedom equals k*T. One single free electron has three degrees of freedom in motion. Lets consider one free electron per atom. There are ~ 8.5E+28 copper atoms per m^3. So we'll consider one electron per atom, which comes to k*T * 3 * 8.5E+28 = 1.1 billion Joules of energy per m^3. The Sun sustains such energy, but that does not matter because the diode array merely converts such energy into DC, and directs it. The energy is not destroy or created. It's merely moved. Diode arrays would be renewable, clean energy.


PL

Edit: changed example to copper.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 07:34:01 AM by PaulLowrance »

Offline spinner

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2008, 12:47:52 PM »
spinner,
I'll offer you same the challenge. Show the math.
And I'll offer you the same challenge that I've offered every skeptic --> Have any reputable scientist test my device. I live in Southern California, USA.
Ooops, the math. .. I'll show you mine when you'll show me yours... OK? ;D
Anyway, the math is "just" a tool, depending on the stuff you want to present or defend.... The physics (our current level of understanding of nature) clearly shows there isn't much to talk about actually breaking "The LAWS"...
Ok, with a decent proof, the world would change instantly...
Quote
For any skeptic who's so sure of their understanding of convention physics, then accept my old challenge --> Lets make a legal business deal. If I'm correct, then you buy it. If I'm wrong, then I'll buy your product. Surely you want to make some $. Lets see how confident the skeptics are.
Geee... I'm not interested in your challenge... Why? Because I trust all those millions of technicians, engineers, physicists,... and the the rest of devoted individuals who were dealing with this kind of stuff in the past.... Don't get me wrong, there's always a great chance that something important was overlooked, but such chances are rather low when it comes to a technology like semiconductors (one of the most thoroughly checked tech in the last few decades)...  Yes, looking through the glasses of a classical thermodynamics....

Quote
Sorry to disappoint the skeptics, but the best available mathematics clearly predicts the diode must rectify thermal noise.

PL
OK, I'll byte... Which math equation clearly shows the thermal energy gain  of a single diode (or PN junction?)?
Rectifying is a circular process, you need to observe it as such...
I came from the old school... Enlighten me, please... I'm prepared to learn!

Offline spinner

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2008, 01:28:31 PM »
If we could rectify all of the collective outgasing of naysayers, the world be brimming with cheap power, and it'd be more peaceful and quieter too....
TS

Yep, Mitch, you're correct... Plenty of wasted power if you consider all the energy spend by the "naysayers", "blind believers", .."politicians", ..  "religious zealots",.. etc,etc..

The world would be more peaceful and quieter..?. Yes!

Offline nightlife

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2008, 03:18:10 PM »
 All matter is energy as well as all matter emits energy. We couldn't touch it, see it, hear it, taste it or smell it if it wasn't. The vibarnce is what makes all this possible.

 I don't think that some of you have realized what Paul has discovered. The natural emitting vibrance of the matter that makes up a diode is being directed in one direction to give us a usable vibrant source.

 We have touched on this topic within other threads but we could not figure out how to tap it. This is a way to tap it and it has been right in front of us all along.

 

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