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Author Topic: "Smoking Gun" - finally!  (Read 31037 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2008, 04:50:57 PM »
Infringer,

The diode array would get cold, not hot, as it would merely move existing thermal energy to the output source/appliance. Fortunately, we don't have to worry about the diode array heating up.  :)

As far as a diode breaking the entire diode array, that would not be a problem. The best diode array would be one that is first in-series, and next in-parallel. See the attached image for an example. If one of the diodes breaks, then just one line breaks, not the entire diode array chip. The only way to break the entire diode array is if an entire line of diodes shorts, but the chance of that happening is almost zero since a diode array will most likely have 100 or more diodes per line.

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2008, 04:50:57 PM »

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2008, 04:53:41 PM »
Also, we're talking about a diode array chip that would be made of trillions of diodes. So the amount of current flowing through each diode is irrelevant. Current will not destroy the diodes. Each diode would last as long as an unused diode, which is essentially forever.

That brings up the other topic. People see that number, "trillion," and freak out. Chip fabrication makes the entire chip at once. So each diode is *not* made at a time. We should think of each diode on a chip as a dot on a photo. Each dot is not made at a time when developed a Kodak photo. So a trillion simple diodes in-series and in-parallel is no big deal when mass produced.

PL

Offline Super God

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2008, 05:40:29 PM »
So, what would the cost of 2 million of the diodes as opposed to a chip of 2 million diodes?  Would it be possible to have a chip manufacturer custom make a chip for you?  More importantly, will the technology scale up?  I would hate it if it was limited by a certain voltage, I guess it's my way of thinking.  I can't see this thing producing 100 volts.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2008, 05:40:29 PM »
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Offline xbox hacker

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2008, 06:27:34 PM »
@Paul

Just one question... one the array attached to the Mylar cap you obviously dont have any extra caps or resistors. But on the board version you have SMD resistors and caps.....are those needed?

Is their any critical spacing requirement if one was to place the diodes on a PCB? How close can you place them?

@Yucca:

No problem!  ;)


@Super God

the SMS7630  diodes are about $.33 ea....but you get 2 in one package. I can only assume if you buy it by the reel, the price would be much less.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2008, 07:03:27 PM »
Quote
So, what would the cost of 2 million of the diodes as opposed to a chip of 2 million diodes?
Yikes, I wouldn't want to think how much a diode array consisting of 2 million *individual* diodes would cost. As far as a diode array chip consisting of one trillion microscopic diodes (10cm x 10cm chip with 100nm diode spacing) on a 10cm x 10cm would cost less than a 10cm x 10cm solar panel when mass produced. IOW, it will be dirt cheap!

Don't get me wrong. Although I'm confident it will work, I don't want to say with 100% certainty that a diode chip made of microscopic diodes will produce usable amounts of energy anytime soon. It's possible the first diode chip will produce usable energy, or it's possible it might require a lot of trial and error. I'm just basing this on my present diode array made with SMS7630 diodes and the mathematics of conventional physics.


Quote
Would it be possible to have a chip manufacturer custom make a chip for you?
Yes. That's very easy for modern technology.


Quote
More importantly, will the technology scale up?I would hate it if it was limited by a certain voltage, I guess it's my way of thinking.
It appears to be scalable. I've built two compact diode arrays, a 156 in-series and a 52 in-series. So far it appears to be scalable.


Quote
I can't see this thing producing 100 volts.
I have to pinch myself everyday in disbelief that I now have real legitimate "free energy" devices in the lab that have produced a DC voltage for 12 months now. It's a dream come true. Perhaps scientists said the same thing about solar cells. What an exciting moment it must have been to see the first solar cell produce over one volt DC. The day will come, soon, when the first diode array *will* produce over one volt DC.  ;D


PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2008, 07:03:27 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #65 on: December 09, 2008, 07:18:31 PM »
Quote
@Paul

Just one question... one the array attached to the Mylar cap you obviously dont have any extra caps or resistors. But on the board version you have SMD resistors and caps.....are those needed?

Is their any critical spacing requirement if one was to place the diodes on a PCB? How close can you place them?
In the first image in photo page -->
http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/experiments/photos/
you'll see three types of diode arrays. The large one, right side, is Tom Schum's. To left of Tom's, very top, is my first diode array. I made it while waiting for the PCB's to arrive. The solder traces were made with room temp liquid solder pen. The R's and C's were bought at a local store. This diode array forms what I call a JNR2d circuit. Don't use the JNR2d circuit!!!  It's unnecessary. The JNR2d circuit was designed because every Spice simulator *incorrectly* simulated diode noise. It turns out diodes actually produce Johnson noise equivalent to their dynamic resistance. I forward the proof of this to Mike, the creator of LTspice, he confirmed it, and LTspice now has the correct diode noise math equations. Although, back then we didn't know about this error in Spice, so we used an external resistor to produce the Johnson noise, and the caps were used to block the DC current.  All of those R's and C's are unnecessary. You only need diodes. In that same photo, left side, the middle diode array, is the same JNR2d circuits except it's on a PCB, and the R's and C's are small, 402 SMD.

In the same photo, left side, bottom diode array, you'll see a wall of diodes connected to a Mylar cap. That is the diode array people should make. The second photo shows a close up image of this diode array. It is wall of SMS7630 diodes, 156 of them in-series.

PL

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2008, 07:20:22 PM »
I just created an animation of how the diode array chip would be fabricated in a vacuum and using deposition -->

http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?topic=18.msg90#msg90

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #66 on: December 09, 2008, 07:20:22 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #67 on: December 09, 2008, 08:43:20 PM »
One question ...

If one diode fails will not the whole array not work leaving us with a set of old school xmas lights that don't work cause there is one bad apple.

We got to think of these things even in beta stages.

-infringer-

one solution to this problem will be a secondary parallel (resistive) connection on each module in the array
should 1 diode fail in any given module, it will take the parallel route through the resistor basically skip over the bad module,  you have a slight loss, but you wont lose the entire array.

important is to make sure the resistor value is GREATER than the total resistance of the module.
so the primary path will be through the series connection.


Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2008, 09:13:10 PM »
A parallel array by itself does not solve the problem. Paralleling has big problems with shorts. A single short would render a parallel diode array useless.

The solution would be a combo of series and parallel. Although for the moment I cannot recommend placing diodes in *direct* parallel to each other because it decreases the kTC noise. Therefore, there's no reason why not to place at least a dozen diodes in-series first, and then in parallel. That way, no two diodes are directly connected in parallel.

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #68 on: December 09, 2008, 09:13:10 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #69 on: December 09, 2008, 09:45:13 PM »
A parallel array by itself does not solve the problem. Paralleling has big problems with shorts. A single short would render a parallel diode array useless.

The solution would be a combo of series and parallel. Although for the moment I cannot recommend placing diodes in *direct* parallel to each other because it decreases the kTC noise. Therefore, there's no reason why not to place at least a dozen diodes in-series first, and then in parallel. That way, no two diodes are directly connected in parallel.

PL

maybe i didnt describe what i was talking about well enough.

what im saying is to add a parallel "shortcut" around EACH module in the array (or group of series connected diodes) so if 1 diode becomes "open" somehow or fails to conduct electricity (wasn't layered perfectly inside the chip, whatever other failure we cant think of)
the flow of current will not be disrupted, it will simply flow through the resistive circuit to the next module or group of diodes.
and the entire array wll continue to function as normal (minus the failed group/module).
the resistor in the shortcut path should be slightly higher han the resistance of the combined diodes it is going around, so it will not affect the functionality of the device except for the loss of the failed module.


Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2008, 10:19:09 PM »
The following post shows a circuit of what I had in mind -->
http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?topic=19.msg53#msg53
The above circuit would not require a resistor. So if a diode is an open-circuit, then it only affects that individual line of diodes.  If a diode shorts, then it's no bid deal, just a loss of one single diode.

Of course, adding a resistor across each diode would help if a diode becomes an open-circuit, but IMO that's a bit much. If by chance a diode is open, then it's just one line out of 10 billion lines. So 1 / 10 billionth is not going to be noticeable. A 10cm x 10cm diode array chip consisting of 1 trillion diodes would have about 5 to 10 billion diode *lines*, where each line consist of 100 to 200 diodes in-series.

PL
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 10:46:13 PM by PaulLowrance »

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #70 on: December 09, 2008, 10:19:09 PM »
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Offline tinu

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #71 on: December 09, 2008, 11:25:20 PM »
...
That brings up the other topic. People see that number, "trillion," and freak out.
...
PL

Hi PL,

I’m not sure this is the case. At least not for the people that really matter for business.
I suppose they freak out for another reason(s):

There are good studies available that show, as predictable, that any noise theory (1/f  included) that does not obey thermodynamics will fail. I regret for not being able to nominate at least one such study but I remember learning about them some time ago and I recall they are freely available on the internet.
Simply put:
1. one can not extract energy from an isothermal reservoir alone. Noise-extraction method (as any other conceivable attempt) is included. I have little doubts that there is room for debates here but I’m nonetheless open to discuss the subject.
2. If we speak about a temperature gradient across a junction, then it is indeed theoretically possible to extract useful work, but:
a) Carnot is the king anyway and for infinitesimal thermal variations (as for a diode resting in environment) the maximum attainable efficiency is that given by the known formula and consequently the extracted work is minuscule. Is it worth trying?
b) if one is to create and mantain a significant thermal gradient across the junction(s) to overcome 1) and 2a) above, the wafer is no longer of an appropriate design for that purpose and possibly the whole device shall move into carrier-diffusion area hence into thermo-electricity, which is already known technology.

Any thoughts about the above concerns?

Cheers,
Tinu

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #72 on: December 10, 2008, 02:33:09 AM »
There are good studies available that show, as predictable, that any noise theory (1/f  included) that does not obey thermodynamics will fail. I regret for not being able to nominate at least one such study but I remember learning about them some time ago and I recall they are freely available on the internet.
Simply put:
1. one can not extract energy from an isothermal reservoir alone. Noise-extraction method (as any other conceivable attempt) is included. I have little doubts that there is room for debates here but I’m nonetheless open to discuss the subject.
2. If we speak about a temperature gradient across a junction, then it is indeed theoretically possible to extract useful work, but:
a) Carnot is the king anyway and for infinitesimal thermal variations (as for a diode resting in environment) the maximum attainable efficiency is that given by the known formula and consequently the extracted work is minuscule. Is it worth trying?
b) if one is to create and mantain a significant thermal gradient across the junction(s) to overcome 1) and 2a) above, the wafer is no longer of an appropriate design for that purpose and possibly the whole device shall move into carrier-diffusion area hence into thermo-electricity, which is already known technology.

Any thoughts about the above concerns?

Cheers,
Tinu


Tinu,

1. Thermodynamics is a theory of macroscopic systems at equilibrium, and therefore the second law applies only to macroscopic systems with well-defined temperatures. On scales of a few atoms, the second law does not apply; for example, in a system of two molecules, it is possible for the slower-moving ("cold") molecule to transfer energy to the faster-moving ("hot") molecule. Such tiny systems are outside the domain of classical thermodynamics. For any isolated system with a mass of more than a few picograms, the second law is true to within a few parts in a million-- Reference: Landau, L.D.; Lifshitz, E.M. (1996). Statistical Physics Part 1. Butterworth Heinemann. ISBN 0-7506-3372-7.

2. The mathematical concept of equilibrium is an impossible state in real life; i.e., it would require infinite thermal insulation to achieve perfect equilibrium.

3. Standard Gaussian thermal noise equation used in modern nonlinear physics violates the laws of thermodynamics. Reference: Thermodynamically valid noise models for nonlinear devices. So either there's a problem with thermal noise with Gaussian distribution or it is possible to rectify thermal noise.

4. You do not use thermodynamics to solve diode modeling problems. To solve diode modeling problems you use diode modeling mathematics that is based on semiconductor physics, which is based on quantum physics. The most accurate small signal semiconductor mathematics *clearly* predicts that diodes *must* rectify natural ambient thermal energy.

5. I wrote a trapdoor software simulation program that clearly shows natural ambient thermal energy can be rectified. When time permits, I will release the source code, but IMO it won't matter because the evidence that my diode arrays are producing a DC voltage from natural ambient thermal energy is becoming overwhelming.

6. For 12 months now I have been measuring a DC voltage produce by a passive diode array contained in at least two layers of metal shielding, far in the various rural areas.


If you're interested in some mathematics them please help yourself -->

http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/physics/dirtydetails/

If you have any questions regarding the testing procedure, then you'll find a lot of the answers -->

http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/forum/index.php?board=9.0


I would be more than happy to have a scientific discuss about this topic, but it must be mathematically based. In terms of scientific discussions, I'm uninterested in claims and handwaving, no offense intended. Thermodynamics mathematics does not provide barrier height, depletion width, dynamics resistance, rectified voltage and current, which is why the best physicists use semiconductor mathematics for diodes. I can assure you that the best small signal semiconductor mathematics clearly predicts that diodes must rectify natural ambient thermal energy.


PL

Offline tinu

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #73 on: December 10, 2008, 09:51:50 PM »
Hi PL,

I’m not unfamiliar with semiconductor physics, although it’s been a while since working with it closely. Recall that most equations are based on simplifying assumptions and that most solutions describe only a limited operational interval, out of which their validity is not even assumed to hold true.  We may go through the whole set of equations if you wish but it won’t help much imho.

Instead, let’s keep on basics for a while and then move further, ok?
Here it is, large cracks that apparently went unnoticed/undiscussed:

1. You said that the chip will cool down when generating power. The chip (as well as any single junction within) is still a macroscopic body that comprises a huge number of components so any statistical deviation from thermodynamics is no larger than the odds my dog will play Bach on my piano. Please reconsider the self-cooling issue and either retract or state what will go hot in the setup and based on what macroscopic energy source.

2. You also estimated quite huge and unbelievable power densities (18kW/sqm) given the circumstances. Assume for a moment you have the chip done, 1sqm, placed into full sun (1.2kW/sqm) and you output +10x more of what sun provides. Where is the source that gives you that extra power? Will the technology stop Global Warming? No offense but see the point and huge chain of ironies? It’s hardly believable even by the most optimistic dreamers. Not to mention what would be the explanation for 18kW when one moves the entire setup into shadow and let it reaches thermal (quasi-)equilibrium. Please detail.

3. I can’t see the path for logically deducing that even if the Gaussian model for noise is known of not being accurate that means noise must be rectifiable by a diode. Instead, let’s recall a diode will rectify any signal which is larger than known values, thus crossing its Fermi barrier. But the signal is *outside” of the depletion area within a diode, hence outside the ‘diode’ itself. I therefore fully agree an appropriate diode will rectify the noise from a coil (or from a resistor etc) or even from an identical diode as long as the rectifying one is kept cooler.  But do you have any good reason to believe that a diode will rectify its own thermal noise? Why is that? Any references available? I ask because I can’t see how it could possibly do that self-rectification of its own noise. If it could do that, according to the same thermodynamics again, it will cool itself down to 0K. Please comment.

Cheers,
Tinu

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #74 on: December 10, 2008, 10:56:51 PM »
Hi,

Where's your math! I don't even see references. This is my final request. I think this will be a short lived discussion.


Quote
Hi PL,

I’m not unfamiliar with semiconductor physics, although it’s been a while since working with it closely. Recall that most equations are based on simplifying assumptions and that most solutions describe only a limited operational interval, out of which their validity is not even assumed to hold true.
"Simplifying *assumptions*"? I don't think you'll find that many physicists who specialize in quantum physics telling you that semiconductor physics is based on *assumptions*.  Please provide a reference.  Perhaps you meant to say "approximations."  All mathematics, including thermodynamics, are approximations.


Quote
1. You said that the chip will cool down when generating power. The chip (as well as any single junction within) is still a macroscopic body that comprises a huge number of components so any statistical deviation from thermodynamics is no larger than the odds my dog will play Bach on my piano. Please reconsider the self-cooling issue and either retract or state what will go hot in the setup and based on what macroscopic energy source.
Each diode is considered a separate system. For most diodes (up to microwave diodes), the thermal noise across the depletion region is equal to sqrt(kT/C), where C is the junction capacitance. Each diode converts thermal noise into DC. Multiple diodes aggregate the DC energy.



Quote
2. You also estimated quite huge and unbelievable power densities (18kW/sqm) given the circumstances. Assume for a moment you have the chip done, 1sqm, placed into full sun (1.2kW/sqm) and you output +10x more of what sun provides. Where is the source that gives you that extra power? Will the technology stop Global Warming? No offense but see the point and huge chain of ironies? It’s hardly believable even by the most optimistic dreamers. Not to mention what would be the explanation for 18kW when one moves the entire setup into shadow and let it reaches thermal (quasi-)equilibrium. Please detail.
By means of thermal conductivity; e.g., air or liquid flowing over the chip.  ;D


Quote
3. I can’t see the path for logically deducing that even if the Gaussian model for noise is known of not being accurate that means noise must be rectifiable by a diode. Instead, let’s recall a diode will rectify any signal which is larger than known values, thus crossing its Fermi barrier. But the signal is *outside” of the depletion area within a diode, hence outside the ‘diode’ itself. I therefore fully agree an appropriate diode will rectify the noise from a coil (or from a resistor etc) or even from an identical diode as long as the rectifying one is kept cooler.  But do you have any good reason to believe that a diode will rectify its own thermal noise? Why is that? Any references available? I ask because I can’t see how it could possibly do that self-rectification of its own noise. If it could do that, according to the same thermodynamics again, it will cool itself down to 0K. Please comment.
It would not cool to 0K -->
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_conductivity

Yes, I have good reason. The best known mathematics that is design to predict semiconductor behavior clearly predicts diodes must rectify natural ambient thermal energy. Furthermore, 12 months of meticulous measurements on ZBD's (zero bias diodes) has always shown a DC voltage. Surely you know how to calculate the noise *current* that flows through the diode depletion region that is solely due to thermal noise, correct?  On my website you can find the mathematics to calculate IS.  Next, you can calculate the diode dynamic resistance based on such noise current with a Gaussian distribution.
Some math for you -->
http://greenselfreliantenergy.com/physics/dirtydetails/
Are you aware of the diode square law. It is well known that the rectified DC voltage produced by a diode is relative to the square of the AC voltage signal across the diode. You can place 1pV rms across a diode and it will still rectify. I've placed less than one microvolt AC across the SMS7630 diode and it still rectified.

BTW, natural temperature gradients is the cause of Johnson noise. You can read just about any good physics textbook to learn that molecules, atoms, charged particles are randomly moving at RT, which could be calculated as temperature gradients.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature

Math, please. Otherwise it's a pointless discussion based on claims and hand waving -->

PL

 

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