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Author Topic: "Smoking Gun" - finally!  (Read 31380 times)

Offline broli

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2008, 04:49:37 PM »
This is really heart crushing you know. A chip company can put these out in a matter of weeks considering their simplicity. Intel et al can already put billions of transistors on a few cm^2. Let alone diodes that are simpler and in this case pretty much straightforward. A CPU or GPU is a complete package to run a PC but this is just putting diode after diode which requires no brain work so to speak.

Instead we have to resort to making our own chip foundry at home because they are too stubborn to handle the request.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2008, 04:49:37 PM »

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2008, 05:17:20 PM »
I agree!  It would just be nice to at least see a quote, I mean, even if the quote is highly inflated just to get rid of me, lol.  They could at least say, "Oh, it would cost you 2 million dollars to make that chip."

The good news is that a home brew garage project semiconductor fabrication setup is not too difficult or expensive. I was talking to a guy who made diodes and LED's while in college with home brew equipment his professor made. They used 1e-4 torr vacuum, which is very easy and inexpensive to achieve. To make a chip that could power a small light doesn't need to be 30nm technology. Even 10um ancient technology could achieve that much power.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to suggest that if we slap together a diode array chip that it's going to produce usable amounts of power. This is uncharted territory. I can only offer the conventional semiconductor mathematics, in addition to my present diode arrays that use over the counter diodes.

What's nice about making our own equipment to make diode array chips is that we can make a *small* chip, test it, make another small chip with a slight adjustment, test, and compare. We could learn what diode parameters work best before making a large chip.

Also, it would be great to be able to make your own chips, any kind of chip. To say the least, you could easily make your own solar cells, which would be easier to make than a single small diode.  :)


PL

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2008, 05:37:25 PM »
just looked on Ebay, you can get 700   1N4007 diodes for $15

that comes to about 2 cents each.   im sure there are other places to get them in bulk.
cut the legs short and solder them into rods of 20-30 diodes.
then connect them all in series to get the voltage you desire.
then duplicate the modules and connect them in parallel to attempt to draw usable power.

700-1k  shouldn't be much bigger than a large textbook,     and if you could even get it to light a tiny LED that would be enough to draw interest in the chip making industry


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2008, 05:37:25 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2008, 05:58:08 PM »
Thanks for info. Here's the mathematical evaluation:

There are only a few over the counter diodes that I could recommend because most diodes have too much capacitance and to high resistance. The 1N4007 has over 60 times more total capacitance than the SMS7630, and 2000 times more low signal resistance. We want diodes with the lowest capacitance and resistance. Also the 1N4007 has extremely high ideality coefficient, which is not good.

In short, this means each 1N4007 diode would produce 21 million times less DC power than the SMS7630. Each SMS7630 diode is 0.47/2 = 23.5 cents each.

I used the 1N4007 model from:
http://www.electronicspoint.com/ibis-models-wanted-1n4007-and-icm7556-t24976.html

As far as I'm aware, the SMS7630 is the most cost effective over the counter diode for this.


A few things I could promise with nearly 100% guarantee. A diode array built with 1N4007 is guaranteed to fail. It would require far too many diodes to produce sufficient DC voltage, *but* a 1N4007 diode array total resistance would be too high for the voltage meter.


PL

Offline nightlife

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2008, 06:40:19 PM »
I have been told that the Japanese did some work like this about ten years ago using cable wire. I am waiting for more information on that and I will post it as soon as I get it.

 I am also wondering what the outcome would be if triodes were used in the place of diodes. Any thoughts on this?
« Last Edit: December 07, 2008, 07:06:08 PM by nightlife »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2008, 06:40:19 PM »
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Offline mondrasek

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #50 on: December 08, 2008, 03:17:45 PM »
Paul,

About 24 years ago I took a tour of Purdue University's EE department as a potential student.  There we were shown multicolor plots of CAD drawings that were used to make the masks for custom semiconductors.  It was explained that seniors in EE were able to design their own chip and then have three wafers produced for test and evaluation as part of their senior design project.  I'm not sure where they were made or if such programs still exist.  I remember they said the wafers were not fab-ed at the University.  Thought you might try contacting a University EE department or similar institution to see if and how they get short runs of semi conductors.

Maybe you will need to find a way to produce the drawings for the masks first?

I'll ask some salesmen from my company who cover the West Coast if they have ever run across companies or contacts who do anything like this.  Unfortunately our products don't usually end up in the semiconductor industry anymore, but when they did I noticed those people all knew each other and changed employers quite often.  Worth a shot.

Good luck.

M.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2008, 06:09:42 PM »
Are you referring to vacuum tube triodes?  It's possible, but one problem with vacuum is the high workfunction. You would need a material with a workfunction (in vacuum) of about 0.1eV to 0.2eV. The workfunction of most elements is around 3 to 5 eV. Making triodes shouldn't be too difficult. You just need a vacuum (rotary vane and a diffusion pump), glass tube, metal plates and wires. Although I don't know how I would seal the glass tube. Perhaps a heated tungsten wire to melt the glass?

Mondrasek, you gave me a good idea. If I demonstrated my diode array to a University professor to prove it's legit, perhaps he could help me design and build a diode array chip using the University equipment.  I don't think all Universities have semiconductor fabrication equipment. Some build their own home brew equipment that's capable of making low quantity components. A few of big Universities probably have the expensive stuff, costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, that can quickly & easily make chips. I'm in the middle of performing a long term diode array experiment, which could take another month to complet.  After that I would like to make a data logger and log the diode array output for another month or two.

PL

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2008, 06:09:42 PM »
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Offline xbox hacker

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #52 on: December 08, 2008, 11:27:10 PM »
OK....OK... after lots of reading i will have to say i am hooked..LOL You have peaked my interest.

So, i was looking for some diodes for other experiments i have done in the past with plasma sparks and i came across a Ebayer that is in China selling diodes... the quote in the bottom of his auction reads...

"WE OFFER CUSTOM-MADE PRODUCTION OF DIODES ACCORDING TO THE SPECIFICATION YOU SUPPLY." ;D
here is a link to his store:
http://stores.ebay.com/OT-Electronics

Also i had at one time owned my own SMD PCB machines, for stuffing boards. You had mentioned a need for a for a mask. And i thought you might be able to have a mask made for you. Using a SMD solder stencil. Its lazer cut thin SS....you probably cant get your optimal size you want, but it might be a good choice for the home shop...just a thought...

DAMIT..i wish i still have those machines...  :-\

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2008, 11:32:40 PM »
What is the largest array anyone has made so far? and what were the results??

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #53 on: December 08, 2008, 11:32:40 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2008, 12:00:34 AM »
Quote
OK....OK... after lots of reading i will have to say i am hooked..LOL You have peaked my interest.
Thanks! In trying to be honest and unbiased here, the diode array is the only device I'm aware of, so far, that anyone can replicate *right now* with all of the necessary details that will produce energy without any batteries. Okay, I admit, I've been measuring the DC voltages for 12 months now, so I cannot expect other people to feel as confident as I am. From a conventional physics mathematical perspective and experimental perspective it's looking like a thumbs up!



Quote
"WE OFFER CUSTOM-MADE PRODUCTION OF DIODES ACCORDING TO THE SPECIFICATION YOU SUPPLY." ;D
I'll try to contact him. Hopefully he can fabricate chips as well.



Quote
What is the largest array anyone has made so far? and what were the results??
I would only consider the diodes "that count."  IOW, if the person is trying to measure for voltage, then it's meaningless to place diodes in-paralle. So then I would say my 156 in-series diode array is the largest so far.


PL

Offline Yucca

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2008, 12:21:27 AM »
Hi Paul,

I remember reading about your work when you were writing with Charlie a while back on the Steorn forum. I agree with you this is a smoking gun (albeit a tiny gun), it proves that a Maxwells Demon like device is possible and it is obviously scaleable.

Just a thought, you may get better luck with chip fab if you tell them that you are building some novel 2D detector array or something like that?

Also if you could produce the VLSI CAD file yourself then the fabs might take you more seriously. I know one gentleman (he was my tutor) who was the lead programmer of a unix based VLSI design tool called chipwise, you can download it here for free:

http://www.ee.kent.ac.uk/chipwise/uksupport/uksupport.html

One question for you, could you give me any pointers on making a very sensitive and stable voltmeter fairly cheaply, would opamps be useful?

All the best, Yucca.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2008, 12:21:27 AM »
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Offline Yucca

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2008, 12:26:46 AM »
@xbox hacker

Thanks for the tip, cool ebay store, have added to my favourite sellers list!

http://stores.ebay.com/OT-Electronics

I´m going to get some very low ESR high voltage caps from them. :)

Yucca.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2008, 12:39:24 AM »
Quote
One question for you, could you give me any pointers on making a very sensitive and stable voltmeter fairly cheaply, would opamps be useful?
You can find op-amps that handle just about anything. Most are under $10. Although it depends what you're willing to give up, and what you mean by "stable."  If you want low temp drift, then chopper (zero drift) op-amps are good, but they're very noise. Linear Tech is a good choice.

Linear tech also has some ultra low noise op-amps.

I'm using the INA116P for it's ultra low bias current, typical is 3fA. Since I'm dealing with DC, the output noise isn't a problem. Also the input noise is not a problem because I can place as much capacitance as I necessary to short out the op-amps noise across the input pins. Also, temperature drift is not a problem because I'm using a mechanical toggle switch to reverse to input voltage. In a matter of minutes I can take three measurements, get the two diffs, and take the average of the two diffs. No op-amp temp drift is so bad that it will drift in a matter of minutes.

PL

Offline Yucca

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2008, 12:43:41 AM »
@Paul,

Thanks for the info.

I was wrong the VLSI design software i mentioned above is not free to everyone only to students :(

edit:
I thought this might interest you:
http://nanotechweb.org/cws/article/tech/22916

Yucca.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 01:19:28 AM by Yucca »

Offline infringer

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Re: "Smoking Gun" - finally!
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2008, 04:21:28 AM »
One question ...

Heat will be a problem the more energy produced will it not?

Diodes while very rugged are prone to heat issues...

While that might be solved in science already the cost issues of fabrication to eliminate the heat issue has not been solved...

If one diode fails will not the whole array not work leaving us with a set of old school xmas lights that don't work cause there is one bad apple.

We got to think of these things even in beta stages.

-infringer-

 

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