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Author Topic: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE  (Read 298144 times)

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #255 on: December 27, 2008, 05:42:34 PM »
Sai Ram Luc,

My secret Christmas wish to the Universe was that I could be able to fully finance your important work...

Because for anyone to comment correctly you really need to give everyone a full "3D" picture of what is going on or we end up like the "4 blind men trying to describing the elephant"

If you are using AC - you really ought to be monitoring the current, voltage and most importantly POWER FACTOR at ALL times.
(perhaps you should come and borrow a scope that can do that for you?)

This will tell you and all of us what is really going on in all the coils at all times.

Cheers
Thane


Sai Ram Thane,

thank you for your offer to borrow one of your Power meters. I just tried it now with a cheap plug in power meter and the meter displays the SG consumes 11 watts just sitting there doing no work and when I connect the coil to the output of the SG the meter starts to flip back and forth from 11w to 12w and back to 11w. I don't remember if your power meters have a .00 resolution?   if not, there would be not much point to using it to get a real readings.  We also need to understand and consider that the effect gets better with higher voltage and my SG could only output 7 volts RMS max. at that point, so I would not be comfortable to evaluate the effect at this low of a voltage going through the coils.

Thane, I will be posting a video link to a Tesla experiment and I know you will recognize the one who is doing the demonstration but I ask you to not give out his name as he may want to stay anonymous and we should respect that. I have great respect for him to take the step forward to start sharing his experiments and that is the most important of all.

Thank you my friend and brother.

Luc

TinselKoala

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #256 on: December 27, 2008, 06:03:51 PM »
@gotoluc:
Yes, that is what I was trying to get across earlier. The signal generator driving the primary with a square wave, is like striking a gong. The secondary has its own resonant frequency, or wavelength, that may be approximated by taking the wire length as a quarter wavelength, then adjusting for various variables like capacitance, top load, etc. So your signal generator and capacitative coupling is acting like the HV power supply and spark gap of a Tesla coil system, and the air-core secondary is "ringing down" between driving pulses. If you can drive the primary directly at the secondary's ring frequency, you should get the most voltage amplification and greatest "range". The damped decay in the secondary's ring trace is related to the "Q" of the system. The better the "Q" the less decay in this ringdown trace.
I think.

You can determine the exact resonant frequency of your secondary, by looking at the output of the coil with the scope, through a 1-meg resistor. Drive the primary directly (or even just loop a turn or two of wire around) with a small signal from the SG (square waves work best). Hook the ground of the scope probe to the base of the secondary, and hook the probe to the 1-meg resistor, hook the resistor to the top of the secondary. Sweep the generator near the calculated frequency, and look for a peak on the scope trace==the output voltage of the coil will peak when you are driving the primary at the 1/4 wavelength resonant frequency.
Then, when you put power to a real primary using the SG amplifier or the H-bridge, this will be the frequency to start with.

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #257 on: December 27, 2008, 06:54:38 PM »
@gotoluc:
Yes, that is what I was trying to get across earlier. The signal generator driving the primary with a square wave, is like striking a gong. The secondary has its own resonant frequency, or wavelength, that may be approximated by taking the wire length as a quarter wavelength, then adjusting for various variables like capacitance, top load, etc. So your signal generator and capacitative coupling is acting like the HV power supply and spark gap of a Tesla coil system, and the air-core secondary is "ringing down" between driving pulses. If you can drive the primary directly at the secondary's ring frequency, you should get the most voltage amplification and greatest "range". The damped decay in the secondary's ring trace is related to the "Q" of the system. The better the "Q" the less decay in this ringdown trace.
I think.

You can determine the exact resonant frequency of your secondary, by looking at the output of the coil with the scope, through a 1-meg resistor. Drive the primary directly (or even just loop a turn or two of wire around) with a small signal from the SG (square waves work best). Hook the ground of the scope probe to the base of the secondary, and hook the probe to the 1-meg resistor, hook the resistor to the top of the secondary. Sweep the generator near the calculated frequency, and look for a peak on the scope trace==the output voltage of the coil will peak when you are driving the primary at the 1/4 wavelength resonant frequency.
Then, when you put power to a real primary using the SG amplifier or the H-bridge, this will be the frequency to start with.

Hi TinselKoala,

thanks for your reply and great information on finding the real frequency the secondary is resonating at. I was sweeping around yesterday and had found it was peaking at 2Mhz and wondered why it was not charging the cap but that would be because my primary is peaking at 625Khz.

I'll add more length to the secondary to tune it to the primary resonance and see what that does.

I'll post the finding ;)

Thanks for sharing

Luc

« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 07:16:51 PM by gotoluc »

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #258 on: December 27, 2008, 07:23:58 PM »
Hi everyone,

here is a link to an excellent video demonstration of Tesla's work. I know this good man and I hope he can join us and share his great knowledge.

Video demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDWF50fUoYY

Luc

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #259 on: December 27, 2008, 08:00:38 PM »
@everyone,

the video link I just posted is from Karl Palsness. It now looks like he doesn't mind that his name is shared since he has started a topic at the Energetic Forum.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3467-teslas-stout-copper-bars-hairpin-circuit.html

Sorry Thane for asking you to not to mention his name but all I got from him was the video link and no instructions.

Luc

wattsup

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #260 on: December 27, 2008, 08:22:16 PM »
To solve the holes in fingernails problem, I'll wear gloves. lol

@najman100

Thanks for your great work. I will get the parts ASAP once I have the circuit in hand.

@gotoluc

Hey man don't give up.

Such mishaps must be expected and are part of the discovery process. I expected it sooner or later and only hope I did not jinx the project with my post to @groundloop. But it was only made to keep this project as real as possible in expecting the unexpected from flyback which can or cannot be the main payback to source.

@groundloop

I have taken the last few days and looked over (with my limited EE-IQ) the spec sheets for the major components and looking at your last diagram to see how they work together. I now understand why you are sending the negative of the 50vdc feed into the source side of the two right IRF640's. If you were to use the same sides as the left two IRF640's you would have required two n-channel and two p-channels, and this way you can use four of the same. Did I catch that one OK. If two n and two p channels were used, would it provide other benefits?

Now here is my main concern. From the left you have the 12vdc positive that is supplying power to pin 1's of the two IR2103s, and it is also going through the two MUR1100E diodes then to the pin 8s. Then on each of the pin 8s you have this 100uf capacitor that is going to the pulsed output leads that go to the coils. So my worry again is the flyback that will hit that capacitor and enter into the pin 8s. So the only barrier between the steady 12vdc side and the pulsed 50vdc pulsed side with flyback is those two 100uF capacitors. Are these capacitors really required in the circuit. Since the circuit is relying on the 4013 to provide the regulated impulses from the FG giving the two IR2013s their pulse cadence, why would you need this feedback pin 8 on a capacitor? And, if this has to be, is it  possible to put two small isolating coils between the capacitor and where it is connected on the other side of the resistor at pin 6. This would ensure no potential flyback to pin 8.

Then there are those two 22K resistors that are going from pin 7 to the pulsed outputs. Again, flyback voltages can be pretty high when pulsing with 50vdc and these resistors are the only thing between it and the pin 7 and again my question is do these resistors really have to be there. Does the pin 7 have to touch the outputs going to the coils?

In my mind, the reverse polarity outputs should have nothing on them other then the IRF640s that are doing the switching. Then from the two left IRF640s I see two other IRF640s that should be in parallel to the two left IRF640 that are doing the positive switching. The two added IRF640s can switch one flyback diode that is then connected "directly" back to the source of 50vdc.

If I was rubbing an old lamp (hmm why not a tube) and out popped an EE Genie that granted me one wish, I would ask for a switching system that could do as follows as my ideal EE pulsing and flyback control circuit.

1) positive, negative and flyback deviation connected at on pulse to outputs.
2) negative disconnected while the positive is still connected with the flyback deviation.
3) positive and flyback deviation disconnected
Repeat 1-3 to start new cycle but at reversed polarity.

Anyways, sorry for the long rambling on but again, for us OUers, flyback, flyback and more flyback is one of our main concerns and finding a way to "really" tackle this problem "without getting resistors and capacitors involved" would be a major step forward and truly worth the added effort here and I think it could be done with a total of six IRF640s or IRF840s. Two positive, two deviation, two negative.

I have done some major pulsing with my FG directly on the gate of IRF840s and they have held up very well compared to the 640s.

All the best.

wattsup

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #261 on: December 27, 2008, 09:10:20 PM »
Excellent post wattsup ;)

much of what you shared was also going through my mind yesterday and felt very tired, so I went for a nap and asked for the Universal Consciousness to help me receive an answer during the rest. I woke up with an answer or maybe part of an answer. Part of the answer is to use HV capacitors by charging and discharging at the resonating frequency using transistors and diodes as an isolation between the source and the resonating coil. Neither would be connected at the same time.

I can maybe make a drawing if you need. let me know.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

najman100

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #262 on: December 27, 2008, 09:41:39 PM »
To solve the holes in fingernails problem, I'll wear gloves. lol

@najman100

Thanks for your great work. I will get the parts ASAP once I have the circuit in hand.

@gotoluc

Hey man don't give up.

Such mishaps must be expected and are part of the discovery process. I expected it sooner or later and only hope I did not jinx the project with my post to @groundloop. But it was only made to keep this project as real as possible in expecting the unexpected from flyback which can or cannot be the main payback to source.

@groundloop

I have taken the last few days and looked over (with my limited EE-IQ) the spec sheets for the major components and looking at your last diagram to see how they work together. I now understand why you are sending the negative of the 50vdc feed into the source side of the two right IRF640's. If you were to use the same sides as the left two IRF640's you would have required two n-channel and two p-channels, and this way you can use four of the same. Did I catch that one OK. If two n and two p channels were used, would it provide other benefits?

Now here is my main concern. From the left you have the 12vdc positive that is supplying power to pin 1's of the two IR2103s, and it is also going through the two MUR1100E diodes then to the pin 8s. Then on each of the pin 8s you have this 100uf capacitor that is going to the pulsed output leads that go to the coils. So my worry again is the flyback that will hit that capacitor and enter into the pin 8s. So the only barrier between the steady 12vdc side and the pulsed 50vdc pulsed side with flyback is those two 100uF capacitors. Are these capacitors really required in the circuit. Since the circuit is relying on the 4013 to provide the regulated impulses from the FG giving the two IR2013s their pulse cadence, why would you need this feedback pin 8 on a capacitor? And, if this has to be, is it  possible to put two small isolating coils between the capacitor and where it is connected on the other side of the resistor at pin 6. This would ensure no potential flyback to pin 8.

Then there are those two 22K resistors that are going from pin 7 to the pulsed outputs. Again, flyback voltages can be pretty high when pulsing with 50vdc and these resistors are the only thing between it and the pin 7 and again my question is do these resistors really have to be there. Does the pin 7 have to touch the outputs going to the coils?

In my mind, the reverse polarity outputs should have nothing on them other then the IRF640s that are doing the switching. Then from the two left IRF640s I see two other IRF640s that should be in parallel to the two left IRF640 that are doing the positive switching. The two added IRF640s can switch one flyback diode that is then connected "directly" back to the source of 50vdc.

If I was rubbing an old lamp (hmm why not a tube) and out popped an EE Genie that granted me one wish, I would ask for a switching system that could do as follows as my ideal EE pulsing and flyback control circuit.

1) positive, negative and flyback deviation connected at on pulse to outputs.
2) negative disconnected while the positive is still connected with the flyback deviation.
3) positive and flyback deviation disconnected
Repeat 1-3 to start new cycle but at reversed polarity.

Anyways, sorry for the long rambling on but again, for us OUers, flyback, flyback and more flyback is one of our main concerns and finding a way to "really" tackle this problem "without getting resistors and capacitors involved" would be a major step forward and truly worth the added effort here and I think it could be done with a total of six IRF640s or IRF840s. Two positive, two deviation, two negative.

I have done some major pulsing with my FG directly on the gate of IRF840s and they have held up very well compared to the 640s.

All the best.

wattsup



Thank you Wattsup
if you already built the first design then continue testing and exploring till you blow up your components it was a preliminary design ,designed by GRoundloop to Gotoluc .the new design should be better .

Najman100

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #263 on: December 28, 2008, 02:59:48 AM »
@everyone,

below is a copy of a post I did at the Energetic Forum Resonance topic. I am posting it here since it may contain some information that may help some here also.

Luc

Quote:
Originally Posted by cody

Luc,
I believe i understand what your saying, but a dc polarity reversal on each pulse is ac(alternates from + to -), correct. Im sorry i should have told you what im using here. Im not using a conventional frequency generator that puts out ac sign and square wave. I am using my own pwm i built that does creat a pure dc(one polarity) pulse. In direct opposition to what you said, im basicly taking a transistor and chopping up dc, and it does work, im finding resonance in the coils. My point i was trying to convey in my previous post was in response to your post about a resonance you were getting in your secondary coil after your pulse turned off(your scope picture). I am seeing that within my primary coil on my scope after my pulse turns off. I was just wondering if you were seeing that in your setup as well. After thinking about it, im sure you are because thats basicly what this resonance this is right, the coil continues to oscillate after the pulse. Im sorry if it was a dumb question, i just got a scope for christmas and have been excited about seeing whats been going on in the coil. Please let me know if im missing something here.

Quote Reply Post by Luc

Humm,

To answer your question, no you will not get any of this in your Primary coil. When my coil is at resonance no matter what kind of wave form goes in it turns to Sine Wave and stays this way. You are getting those results because you are using chopped DC. I tested coils with chopped DC over a year ago and never got any good results... but as soon as I used flipped DC I experienced the effects of resonance when using a capacitor in series with square wave.

If need be I can do a video demo to show the difference between chopped DC and flipped polarity DC. For me they give very different results.

From my test at this time I can show that when the coil reaches resonance those flipped DC square waves turn to Sine Wave in the coil.

Here is a video demo I did for you and others to demonstrate this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJQvqTpBdiQ

If you wish for me to do a video demo to confirm the above please don't hesitate to ask.

Back to the scope shots. From the video you can see that a resonating primary is very energetic with a small voltage and next to no amps by using a micro bulb in series to prove that. I can tell you it gets wild with higher voltage and still no amps and if we have a tuned antenna (secondary) within the area of the coil... that tuned antenna will also resonate some extra beats and that is where we can collect some extra energy I believe That was the reason to show the scope shot of the extra activity of the secondary antenna coil. If you want I can also do a scope shot of the primary coil and secondary to show the primary stay as sine wave and at the same beat of the signal generators square wave input.

At this point I don't have my secondary antenna tuned. I'm trying to learn how to do this. Hope to have it done soon and I'll show the results once done.

I'm sorry if anything that I have shared is already known to you but it may help other at the same time.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

TinselKoala

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #264 on: December 28, 2008, 04:17:03 AM »
Have you tried an air variable across the secondary, like I showed in that video? By varying the capacitance you will vary the resonant frequency of the coil...It works frighteningly well for me.
I have no problem lighting up a NE-2 neon bulb with just one lead connected to the coil and another to me--that must mean at least 90 volts. And I can produce a continuous spark across inside this little transient spark gap thingie I found today...by fine-tuning the secondary with a variable capacitor...without even having the second lead hooked up !?!

The thing about flipped polarity DC vs. chopped DC will depend on your capacitance and frequency. At some frequencies there isn't much difference. At others the flipped polarity DC will act like AC (which it really is) and the chopped DC will act like AC with a DC offset (which it really is.)
Coils, by the process of induction, will generally always smooth out an inductive impulse to a sine wave response. But a square wave or pulse in the primary, with as short a rise time as possible, will produce the best inductive response in the secondary. The secondary's response will be sinusoidal even when the primary is pulsed with a square wave or rapid-rise pulse.
Usually.

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #265 on: December 28, 2008, 07:09:39 AM »
Have you tried an air variable across the secondary, like I showed in that video? By varying the capacitance you will vary the resonant frequency of the coil...It works frighteningly well for me.
I have no problem lighting up a NE-2 neon bulb with just one lead connected to the coil and another to me--that must mean at least 90 volts. And I can produce a continuous spark across inside this little transient spark gap thingie I found today...by fine-tuning the secondary with a variable capacitor...without even having the second lead hooked up !?!

The thing about flipped polarity DC vs. chopped DC will depend on your capacitance and frequency. At some frequencies there isn't much difference. At others the flipped polarity DC will act like AC (which it really is) and the chopped DC will act like AC with a DC offset (which it really is.)
Coils, by the process of induction, will generally always smooth out an inductive impulse to a sine wave response. But a square wave or pulse in the primary, with as short a rise time as possible, will produce the best inductive response in the secondary. The secondary's response will be sinusoidal even when the primary is pulsed with a square wave or rapid-rise pulse.
Usually.

Hi TinselKoala,

thanks for all the information. I do have a couple of 4pf variable caps that I use to fine tune my primary.  I'll give those a try on the secondary.

Thanks for sharing

Luc

clone477

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #266 on: December 28, 2008, 07:48:41 AM »
Luc, it's really good to see you continue experimenting.  I wanted to ask you were did you get that o-scope kit for the laptop, I would like to get one.  Thanks Luc

gotoluc

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #267 on: December 28, 2008, 08:29:30 AM »
Luc, it's really good to see you continue experimenting.  I wanted to ask you were did you get that o-scope kit for the laptop, I would like to get one.  Thanks Luc

Hi clone477,

here you go, $210.US and free delivery. Can't beat that: http://cgi.ebay.com/100MSa-s-USB-PC-Based-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-2090_W0QQitemZ150315912443QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Oscilloscopes?hash=item150315912443&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A15|39%3A1|240%3A1307

Najman100 got his delivered in a week ;D

Luc

Groundloop

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #268 on: December 28, 2008, 10:54:44 AM »
@Wattsup,

Luc asked me to look into a circuit that used the 4013 and IRF640 because he had those components.
When I designed that circuit I relalized that I needed two high side drivers to get it to work. I desided to
use the IR2103 since I already have used the IR2103 and knew that IC. The data sheet for the IR2103
states that one should use a decoupling capacitor on both the low side switching (at the input of the IC)
and at the high side of the switching. These capacitors will help average the current going to the IC so that
the wires and other parts stay cold. The 100 nano Farad capacitor on the high side will help to reduce
heat in the diode. The IR2103 is designed to operate at up to 600 volt on the high floating side. The IC is
also tolerant to negative transient voltage and dV/dt immune. The hexfets used has internal diodes between
drain and source and will survive voltages up to the rated voltage for the types used. But you know Luc. He
immediately cranked his variable transformer up to 50 volt and ran the circuit. LOL

The back emf voltage pulses from the coil is brutal at this voltage level. He was operating the circuit very close
to the maximal voltage level permitted by the components used because of the  back emf voltage spikes.
Luckily for us, Luc did not know that. The circuit barely held together and he found the new "effect" in his output coils.
Then he found that the initially used diode (1N4007) was warm when running the circuit. It is my best guess that some
of the back emf voltage was "burned" away as heat in this diode and when we change it to a faster type then the voltage
spikes had nowhere to go. The hexfets internal diodes was not fast enough to channel the back emf voltage back
to the power source so something had to give in at some point in the testing. The IR2103 was the one that couldn't
take it because of over voltage so the little IC just caved in and burnt the high side internal mosfet transistor. Then Chris31
chipped in and suggested a change in the design that will keep the IR2103 safe. I added the components he suggested
but has not tested the new circuit. There you go, now you know why this circuit is designed the way it turned out to be.

Now we has designed a new switch based on what we learned about the old circuit. I do not know if the new circuits
will be better or worse than the old one because I have never tried to run a coil as a load at these high voltage levels
before. I understand that we need transistors with a high voltage capability etc. The new design uses "floating" switches
that are powered directly from the high voltage side of the circuit. But, knowing Luc, he will probably crank up the
input voltage to 100 volt and just vaporize the transistors and opto couplers. LOL

That said, this is a good thing. Without Luc's testing we will never know what it takes to make a good circuit that
can survive the high voltages and also display the "effect" he discovered. So we are on a road of testing and designing
good circuits that can do the job and still work another day. I think that if we work together will will archive that goal.

I all in for P-Type mosfets and other circuit solutions. Anybody that has good ideas if free to design circuits solutions
and post them here. Please do a drawing of your deviation circuit and post it here. Your design may be very good and
can be the next circuit we build.

Now I would like to address a "phenomena" still floating around on free energy forums. People like to group other
people. I often hear words like EE's and OU's. I do not like it at all. In here we are a bunch of people working for
a common goal. There is no "us" or "them". We are all just peoples doing the best we can to develop something
that may work some day to help solve the energy problem once and for all. I can only look at myself as an example.
I started out my working career as a fisher man. Then I completed three years at college and was educated as an
radio and TV repair man. This is the only school years for me. I have played with electronics as a hobby since I was
approx. 9 years old. Now at 51, I have studied many books and try to keep up with the changing world as best as I can.
Does this makes me an EE? Yes and no. But in any case, I have had great fun with electronics as a hobby and for
the last 5 years also researching free energy circuits. I think is is the fun that keep me going.

Regards,
Groundloop.

Goat

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Re: RESONANCE EFFECTS FOR EVERYONE TO SHARE
« Reply #269 on: December 28, 2008, 02:48:20 PM »
@ Groundloop & Gotoluc

Man you guys are the best  ;D and definitely stand apart from the crowd in my books!!! 

When it comes to OU and fooling around with circuits your creativity and Gotoluc's sense of adventure are showing us all what it takes to have a thick skin and keep experimenting :o  Thanks a bunch!!!

I still hold hope in the coming new year that there is a chance that maybe someday soon some of us will achieve our goals of OU through the school of hard knocks  ;)  Screw the books and established laws, laws are meant to be pushed and broken anyways  ;)

Keep picking at it  ;D

PS:  You guys remind me of Scotty in StrarTreck...."I'm giving it all she's got Captain!!!"...take care and Happy New Year folks  ;D

Regards,
Paul