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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: 0c on November 24, 2008, 09:37:11 PM

Title: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 24, 2008, 09:37:11 PM
TK,

Thanks for the many nice presentations you have put together. I wondered whether you would take the time to explain and illustrate another electromagnetic device -- purely for educational purposes.

What are the magnetic characteristics of a Tesla Bifilar Coil: location, shape, intensity, and polarity of magnetic field. And how does it compare to or differ from a standard spiral wound pancake coil with the same number of turns?

If you would take the time to answer this question, I have some related ones to ask as well.

Thanks,
0c

(Maybe someone can collect some references to TKs other materials here?)
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: ramset on November 24, 2008, 10:47:17 PM
Sir  This is a confusing thread you have opened
Are you fishing or is TK a buddy of yours?
   Chet
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 25, 2008, 12:21:38 AM
I was hoping we could gather references to the TinselKoala photos and demonstrations into a common location that would be easy to find and reference, instead of searching through all the threads to find them. There's a lot of good educational materials there.

I also had a question that I would love to have addressed in the same fashion TK has done in the past. If you can provide the info and illustrate the magnetic similarities and differences I asked for above, go ahead. But I like the way TK does what he does. He gets the ideas across very well.

Buddies I don't know, but would be proud to make that claim if it was true.

Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on November 25, 2008, 03:32:44 AM
Hmmm...thanks for the flowers...
I wish I could answer the question properly "off the top of my head" but I can't. As you know, there are a lot of variables to consider.
The term "bifilar" has been used to describe many other types of coils but I think you are referring to Tesla's flat bifilars as described in 512340. In general when compared to a flat spiral coil of the same diameter and number of turns, the interturn capacitance (which we often ironically seek to minimize) is much greater in the bifilar series-connected form. This capacitance can store a lot of charge, and when such a coil is operated in resonance, some people believe this capacitance can interact with the coil's inductive reactance in interesting ways.
I have a small TC that is set up to use different primaries. It might be possible to try a pancake series bifilar primary on that coil to do some comparisons. I'll see if I can dig it out and dust it off. A cylindrical parallel bifilar secondary that I wound for that coil didn't work out so well--not enough insulation between windings, so they just acted like a single winding. Next one will be flat and vacuum-potted in wax or epoxy.
There are other so-called bifilar forms of winding too. Some are non-inductive loops, some are just multiple windings on the same core. I even know less about these.
I'm not sure what you intend by this thread; I'm flattered by the attention, but I'm really not trying to make a big fuss. I've put some videos up on YT and those can be easily found, and I've also linked to some longer larger files on mediafire.com.  Anyway, thanks for the comments.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 25, 2008, 04:27:06 AM
TK,

Thanks for the quick response. The Tesla patent you referred to is the one I'm interested in.

I'm mostly interested in the magnetic field characteristics of the coil as a DC or pulsed DC electromagnet, not in AC resonance. I have heard the Tesla bifilar coils have a significantly greater magnetic field. How does it compare under these conditions to a similarly sized spiral pancake coil, or to a solenoid? How is the field distributed across the surface and center of the coil? What difference does an iron core make, does it help concentrate the field in the center?

I have other questions as well, but they will based on what I learn from these initial questions.

Thanks again,
0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 25, 2008, 04:34:11 AM
Here's a link to TinselKoala's very informative Youtube videos. It's a good place to start learning some interesting physics.

http://www.youtube.com/TinselKoala

Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: renaud67 on November 25, 2008, 10:57:55 AM
you mean Nikola Tesla  ;)
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 25, 2008, 06:57:52 PM
... and here's some more of TK's stuff:

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=940933a6c22ce0527069484bded33bcd909d9e4de48a2ac7
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2008, 01:23:48 AM
The electrolysis videos in the mess at mediafire are to be considered preliminary. I will be doing a little more in that line after the holidays.

Meanwhile, today I made 2 small comparison coils in an effort to get ready to answer some of 0c's questions. I'll post a picture of them in a few minutes. One is a standard pancake coil and the other is a series Tesla bifilar, as illustrated in 512340. They both use exactly the same amount of wire.

Tomorrow I will hook these coils up to some very expensive test equipment and try to determine their inductances, distributed capacitances, and so forth.

Later, I may be able to compare the performance of these coils as primaries for a little VHF TC.

I would be glad to hear of some easy experiments and tests to try with these coils.

I would not expect the DC or LF magnetic fields produced by the coils to differ. There may be some differences at higher frequencies, especially the autoresonances. The capacitances will definitely differ...the bifilar will store more charge...hmmm.
Hmmm.
Hmmm.........................................

EDIT And here they are:
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/362178ccabe44cebd89746d2d9bde1315g.jpg)
(http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/649be0c58f660a19a13286ad54499fbc5g.jpg)
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 26, 2008, 03:50:59 AM
Nice work TK,

Those coils look great. There might be a minor issue though if we want to flip them upside down. Since I am primarily focussed on the magnetic characteristics, we may want to have access to one or the other magnetic pole, or maybe even both. And I was considering a pendulum above the coil, so different coil heights might be an issue. Maybe some legs instead of lrf's might do the trick.

This will work fine for initial investigations though, checking the magnetic (and electrical) characteristics. Depending on what we learn here, some of things I am considerin may not be needed.

Thanks,
0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2008, 06:08:52 AM
If you want to learn what bifilar coils can do, check out our earth battery experiments topics.  The topic I started is Stubblefield coils and speculations.  Nathan Stubblefield knew Tesla and, make a long story short, powered his town's telephone system, heated and lighted his home, all with his earth batteries which are bifilar wound coils on an iron core.  I have made several of these and they still put out free electricity.  Just thought I would mention it.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 4Tesla on November 26, 2008, 09:27:58 AM
@TinselKoala

Nice work!

Jason
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: eavogels on November 26, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
If you want to learn what bifilar coils can do, check out our earth battery experiments topics.  The topic I started is Stubblefield coils and speculations.  Nathan Stubblefield knew Tesla and, make a long story short, powered his town's telephone system, heated and lighted his home, all with his earth batteries which are bifilar wound coils on an iron core.  I have made several of these and they still put out free electricity.  Just thought I would mention it.

Bill

I'm interested but I do not find the link.
Eric.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: ramset on November 26, 2008, 04:11:41 PM
Eric I believe this is the link Bill referred to http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg55403#msg55403
 Chet
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: eavogels on November 26, 2008, 04:43:52 PM
Eric I believe this is the link Bill referred to http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg55403#msg55403
 Chet

Thanks Chet,

Found it. 220 pages to read =;)

Eric
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: ramset on November 26, 2008, 05:00:16 PM
Yes it is big perhaps Bill can rec comend a place to start?
Chet
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2008, 05:41:56 PM
@ Chet:

Thanks for posting the link.  That is the topic started by LocalJoe.  A lot of good experiments and information there.

The topic I started is: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.0 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.0)

Sorry I didn't hunt up the links in my earlier post.

As far as what to read and what to skip....very hard to say.  A lot of good information is buried in along with our learning curve and patent research.  A lot of good folks contributed to both of these topics.  I just think it's cool to wind a coil and be able to produce numbers like 1.8 vdc and 80+ milliamps for free.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on November 26, 2008, 06:55:38 PM
Yep, that's certainly pretty cool. You should have no trouble at all lighting some LED's with that.

But I don't think those are the type of bifilar coils that 0c is asking about. We are talking about series-connected flat bifilars like Tesla described in 512340.

I think the coils you are describing are wound differently and use different materials. I would like to know the details of the wiring; I couldn't find it from a casual skim thru those threads.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2008, 07:15:41 PM
Tinselkoala:

The coils are simple.  copper wire (solid, bare, not magnet wire) and iron wire. (also non-coated)  These are wound bifilar style around an iron core. (large mass, very high iron content)  Now for the hard part.  Nathan Stubblefield used cotton insulation between his core and the fe and cu wires and between the cu and fe wires themselves, and the layers too.
Back in his days, late 1800's, cotton insulation was just about all there was.  You can still find it today but very expensive. (It comes in tube form and you slip it over your wires as you wind)  Some of us cut cotton strips and wound that around the wires while winding but that makes the coil pretty bulky in my opinion.

What I did was to insulate the core with cotton cloth, wound my first layer of copper and iron together and then, took cotton cord and forced it in-between the wires by turning and winding the coil. (hard to explain)  This isolated the cu and fe wires.  Then wrapped cotton material around 1st layer, repeated everything for the following layers.

These types of coils put out power when totally dry.  When moist, the output really goes up.  When planted in the ground and left for a while, you get the best output by far.  One of our experimenters wound a Tesla type pancake coil but I don't think he got any decent results out of it, I am not sure.

Funny thing is, we found (Thanks Hans) photos of Stubblefield and Tesla together.  Stubblefield is honored here in KY (Murry) as the father of radio.  In actuality, he invented the cell phone and this was in about 1890.

Fun stuff.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 26, 2008, 08:36:28 PM
Thanks for the reference but a Stubblefield coil is NOT the type of bifilar coil I was referring to. A Stubblefield coil is actually wound so the current flows in opposite direction in the parallel wires and cancels out almost all magnetic effects. A Tesla bifilar coil is wound so the current is flowing in the same direction in the parallel wires and can enhance the magnetic effects, at least with AC current. Part of this experiment is to determine whether DC or transient DC pulses will also show any enhanced magnetic effects.

For those interested in Stubblefield bifilar coils, I have gone through the first 1,000 posts in that thread and here are the most significant posts I could find:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg64060#msg64060
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg66123#msg66123
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg67858#msg67858

Repeat, the experiments in this thread are about the Tesla bifilar coil, NOT the Stubblefield coil.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 26, 2008, 10:17:39 PM
Oc:

The Stubblefield coil is actually a self-energizing electro magnet in itself.  It is also a primary which, with the addition of a secondary, can produce ac.  We did many experiments using a compass and the results were both interesting and confusing. But, if this does not help in your research, I can understand that.  Stubblefield's coil is the only one I am familiar with.  I never tried Tesla's.

Bill

Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 27, 2008, 04:01:28 AM
The Stubblefield coil is actually a self-energizing electro magnet in itself.  It is also a primary which, with the addition of a secondary, can produce ac.  We did many experiments using a compass and the results were both interesting and confusing. But, if this does not help in your research, I can understand that.  Stubblefield's coil is the only one I am familiar with.  I never tried Tesla's.

Stubblefield coils may very well be worth looking into, but should be under a different topic. This is the "Magnet Motors" topic, the "Magnetics Workbench" thread, and the question at the moment is about "magnetic properties" of a Tesla bifilar coil, which TK has already constructed.

If you have questions about Tesla bifilar coils, now is the time to ask. Let's see if we can learn something here before things get too chaotic, OK?

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2008, 04:58:11 AM
Now, now, let's not get snippy. I think maybe 0c isn't getting enough sleep. Neither am I, for that matter.
I didn't have time to break out the big guns today, but I did manage to test the two coils on the little GenRad RCLomometer.
The coils don't differ much at the two frequencies used, 120 Hz and 1 kHz. The Tesla bifilar reads 0.032 milliHenrys at 120 Hz and 0.0141 mH at 1 kHz. The pancake coil reads 0.033 mH at 120 Hz and 0.0151 mH at 1 kHz. I couldn't get a good capacitance reading on this instrument.
I'll try some active experimentation tomorrow if I have a chance. The local TC expert was watching and expressed an interest, and mentioned the patent, and we talked about the interturn capacitance for a while. It's been a long time, but I seem to remember this could be useful...
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 27, 2008, 05:32:22 AM
Yes, snippy is a good word.  I am sorry I tried to help.  Good luck to you.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on November 27, 2008, 05:34:43 AM
Now, now, let's not get snippy. I think maybe 0c isn't getting enough sleep.

Sorry 'bout that. You're right about the sleep.  :(
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Paul-R on November 27, 2008, 04:03:20 PM
Now for the hard part.  Nathan Stubblefield used cotton insulation between his core and the
fe and cu wires and between the cu and fe wires themselves, and the layers too....
This is probably a rather facile question, but are you sure that he was not simply using
the best insulation then available? Is there not an easier and better solution nowadays?
Like the usual painting with varnish or some paper fibre based idea?
Paul.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on November 27, 2008, 04:31:46 PM
Bill, I for one am glad for your input. Please keep reading and commenting. I am truly interested in the Stubblefield bifilars, but they are different from what we are talking about here. I'm just trying to characterize these coils, and 0c has some specific things to look at with this configuration.
But I'll be winding some Stubblefield coils too. I have lots of strange wires, all different materials and insulations (enamel, silk, cotton single and double, rayon, gutta-percha, rubber, etc.) that might be interesting to examine in those configurations.
Please don't go away.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 28, 2008, 05:46:24 AM
@ TinselKoala:

Thank you, I appreciate that.  If I can help, just let me know.

@ Paul-R:

Yes, he used what was available at the time but the cotton use is very important.  I believe some of his coils used silk as well.  The key is to use an insulation that isolates the conductors and yet allows moisture to pass through.  Some of the experimenters attempted coils using modern materials and they did not work at all.  A few tried plastic mesh which allowed moisture to pass but still separated the conductors and I believe this worked, to a point but it did not hold moisture like the cotton does.  This is very important when placing in the ground.  Feel free to try some other things as we certainly did not try everything.  But we did see the need for the moisture holding properties of the cotton, or similar material in our experiments.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 01, 2008, 06:11:05 AM
@TK,

Whenever you are ready, could you see what shape magnetic field is produced with a small DC current? Is it evenly distributed above the coil? Does it intensify towards the center? Does a ferromagnetic core (steel washer) concentrate the field towards the center? Is there a difference in field intensity or distribution between the two coils?

Thanks,
0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 03, 2008, 05:32:38 AM
I haven't had a chance to map the fields like you requested, 0c, but here is a video of a comparison I did that might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvb39SwTXBE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvb39SwTXBE)
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 03, 2008, 06:31:57 AM
I haven't had a chance to map the fields like you requested, 0c, but here is a video of a comparison I did that might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvb39SwTXBE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvb39SwTXBE)

Good stuff. And I'm sure there's more of this to come. I know how much you like those HV sparks.

But please don't forget I'm primarily interested in the low voltage DC or transient DC magnetic characteristics. First thing I'd like to find out is if there is a noticable difference in shape or intensity of the magnetic field that might make a bifilar coil more suitable for use with a magnet motor. And how effective is a ferromagnetic core for concentrating the magnetic field with these types of coils?

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 03, 2008, 07:15:12 AM
@ Tinsel:

Great video demonstration!!  I subscribed to your youtube channel.  I am on there as 0WildBill0.  Very nicely done.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Michelinho on December 03, 2008, 11:27:30 AM

@Oc,

In an alternator, the bifilar coil will give the same voltage but twice the current over a regular wound coil with the same length of wire. I just finished building an axial flux alternator with bifilar coils, my son-in-law tested both coil versions before I started winding my coils and that is what he saw as output under the same condition of testing.

The results with the bifilar coil Tinsel shows in his video was in line with what I was expecting to see.

Thanks TK for the nice video.

Take care,

Michel
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 03, 2008, 03:29:13 PM
In an alternator, the bifilar coil will give the same voltage but twice the current over a regular wound coil with the same length of wire. I just finished building an axial flux alternator with bifilar coils, my son-in-law tested both coil versions before I started winding my coils and that is what he saw as output under the same condition of testing.

Would you be able to share any photos, drawings, notes about this alternator you and your son-in-law built? There might be some answers there. I'm especially interested in the increased current you found (increased current = increased magnetic field).

The spark demo was interesting, but I was also not surprised. There have been a number of experiments demonstrating the electrical characteristics of a Tesla bifilar coil. Except for a couple obscure comments, I have been unable to locate any description of the magnetic characteristics.

@TK, Thanks again for another interesting and informative experiment. Keep up the good work!

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Michelinho on December 03, 2008, 05:16:12 PM


@ Oc,

You can view the alternator in my Newman motor thread. The Newman uses bifilar and the alternator too. There are pictures and details there:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5287.20 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5287.20)

Take care,

Michel
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 03, 2008, 05:40:18 PM
Nice work Michel. Maybe I should be asking you these questions?   :o

Have you checked the magnetic fields of the coils during alternator operation?

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 03, 2008, 06:51:10 PM
Just to be clear, there seem to be 2 types of "bifilar" coils that people use. The first, the Tesla bifilar (512340) has parallel, same direction current paths. The other type, that I will call the "Stubblefield" type (thanks Bill) has opposing current paths, hence cancelling mag fields.
It would be good for posters to specify which type they are discussing, just to be perfectly clear.
I and 0c are mostly concerned in this thread with the Tesla type. But I welcome all (relevant) comments.
Thanks...
TK
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 03, 2008, 07:04:23 PM
Just to be clear, there seem to be 2 types of "bifilar" coils that people use. The first, the Tesla bifilar (512340) has parallel, same direction current paths. The other type, that I will call the "Stubblefield" type (thanks Bill) has opposing current paths, hence cancelling mag fields.
It would be good for posters to specify which type they are discussing, just to be perfectly clear.
I and 0c are mostly concerned in this thread with the Tesla type. But I welcome all (relevant) comments.

FYI: Wire wound resistors use something very similar to a Stubblefield coil to cancel out magnetic fields and reduce inductance.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Michelinho on December 03, 2008, 07:23:47 PM
Just to be clear, there seem to be 2 types of "bifilar" coils that people use. The first, the Tesla bifilar (512340) has parallel, same direction current paths. The other type, that I will call the "Stubblefield" type (thanks Bill) has opposing current paths, hence cancelling mag fields.
It would be good for posters to specify which type they are discussing, just to be perfectly clear.
I and 0c are mostly concerned in this thread with the Tesla type. But I welcome all (relevant) comments.
Thanks...
TK

The Stubblefield cell is not like the Tesla coil, the iron wire and copper wire are not connected together. They are wound side by side to increase the area of exchange in the electrolytic process. The iron wire and iron core are used to magnify the magnetic effect of the cell. Although called bifilar wound, they are indeed the anode and cathode of a battery in close proximity and far related to Tesla's own.

Take care,

Michel
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 03, 2008, 09:16:13 PM
Thanks, Michelinho. So we really have 4 types, then--the Tesla type, flat, single wire not non-inductively wound; the Stubblefield type, wound with dissimilar metals, maybe inductive maybe not, and the Bedini type, multiple windings maybe inductive maybe not, and the non-inductive wound resistors that 0c mentioned, definitely bifilar non-inductive.

Thank goodness I am only going to be looking at the first type, for now!!

I just finished winding another identical Tesla type flat bifilar to match the other one in the video. So I will try to do the same test as above with the two Tesla bifilars.

If I can stay awake long enough tonight.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 03, 2008, 09:26:56 PM
So we really have 4 types

I just remembered, there's also the cadeuceus coil. So there's 5 types. But I'm primarily concerned with the Tesla patented bifilar coil.  ;)
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: xilusma on December 15, 2008, 05:35:13 PM
Hi TinselKoala,

Any update on the test unit?

Regards
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 15, 2008, 05:57:40 PM
Not much. I found enough wire to wind another identical Tesla bifilar, but not enough to wind another identical pancake.
So I made the bifilar, and tested the two bifilars together--they gave an intermediate spark.
I have not done any DC field mapping as per the original request from 0c. I'll be making a little gimballed magnet, sort of like a 3-d compass, to try to map the fields in a visually descriptive way, and I'm also building groundloop's MOSFET H-bridge circuit to act as an actuator for various experiments using these coils and also for ltseung's famous experiment001 and explain004.

Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: Pirate88179 on December 15, 2008, 08:16:55 PM
@ TinselKoala:

When you do Tseung's infamous experiment 001, please be sure to do it correctly this time. (Ha ha)

Obviously, and I hope you know, I am only kidding.  I really don't know why you are wasting your time with the LOT as I thought all of your explanations and earlier tests were exactly correct.  The only problem was, it did not prove his theory.  I seriously doubt that there is any test in the universe that could do that.  Keep up your good work though, I am learning a lot from you.

Bill
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 16, 2008, 04:20:27 AM
@TK,

Just what do you mean by "intermediate spark"?

Have you been able to test the intensity of the magnetic field with DC or a short DC pulse? Is it any stronger with the bifilar coil?

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 16, 2008, 04:00:21 PM
In the video I described, and showed, 2 spark strengths. By "intermediate" I mean a spark strength that was, well, intermediate between the other two strengths shown.
I have so far only pulsed the coils with the damped oscillatory AC high-voltage ringdown capacitive discharge produced by my little 6 kV power supply, 110 nF doorknob cap stack, and high-speed rotary spark gap.
So far, as far as magnetic field strength goes, I have noticed no differences in behaviour of the two types of coil. But it does seem as though the TBC stores and returns more energy overall, probably due to the electric field rather than the magnetic.
But I still haven't had a chance to complete the gimballed magnet for direction mapping.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 17, 2008, 04:32:03 AM
So the TBC makes a better transmitter and the spiral pancake coil is a better receiver?

I'm anxious to see the results of the DC magnetic field intensity and field shape experiments. To see if there is any truth to the rumor that the TBC has a stronger field. This should be tested with steady low-voltage DC and with short (0.1 to 0.05 second) DC pulses to check for differences between the two coil types.

I've also heard rumors the Lenz effects are minimal or nonexistent in a TBC, thus my earlier comment about possibly setting up a pendulum to swing over the coil. Of course, being the wacko I am, the pendulum arm and bob may not be quite as straightforward as one might think. I do have some deviant thoughts.  ;)

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 17, 2008, 01:18:17 PM
Hmmm--I think there are many confusions around the terminology and the construction. Who knows just exactly what is being reported, and with what kind of how-wound coil? I would think that the fact that inductive pickup can be demonstrated in the TBC, would also imply that LL holds true as well. But perhaps not.
I now have a suitable driver/amplifier for the coil magnetic field testing, thanks to groundloop and gotoluc.
Why don't you see if you can come up with some specific parameters for your pendulum experiment, that will be able to compare the TBC with the pancake. The driver circuit is configured to produce a 50 percent duty cycle square pulse, at whatever frequency is reasonable, when clocked from a signal generator. But I can probably figure out a way modify the duty cycle and how to trigger it from a Hall sensor or optical commutation or deconvolved modified pings...whatever those are.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 17, 2008, 03:39:38 PM
I agree, there are many wild and unfounded claims out on the internet. The purpose of some of these tests is to verify or disprove those claims. I'm only focusing on magnetics here. I have seen claims that a TBC:

1) creates a more intense magnetic field than a spiral pancake coil for a given input power. I don't recall whether this applies to DC, pulsed DC, or only AC.

- The first tests with DC or pulsed DC are designed to check the validity of this statement and to see if there are any interesting differences in the magnetic intensity or the shape of the magnetic field.

2) shows very little or no Lenz Law effects.

- A simple pendulum with a magnet at the end in a fixed orientation (N facing down) can be placed so it passes across the coil. The magnet should be smaller than the core diameter. The coil should be shorted or connected through a very small resistance.  If LL holds, the pendulum should hesitate or slow or tend to swing around the core as it approches the center and should meet further resistance after passing the center.

- Flip the coil over so the spiral goes the other direction (CW instead of CCW). Does a coil wound the opposite direction demonstrate any difference in behavior? Magnetic polarity?

- Replace the fixed magnet with a diametrically magnetized cylinder that can spin and change its orientation WRT the coil as it passes over. This is the nonstandard pendulum I mentioned.

- Another variation would be to use a double arm at varying angles between the arms, so they pass over different areas of the coil, in differing magnetic relationships WRT the coil and each other. Both fixed and spinning diametric magnets can be tried.

Note: If a small resistor is used across the coil terminals, the induced voltage can be measured. A Hall sensor can be placed near the core to monitor changes in the magnetic field. A dual trace scope can show the relationships between the two at any moment in time.

0c
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 18, 2008, 07:36:03 AM
Much to do, I see. I think I understand what you are getting at. I would expect one of the other "bifilar" types to behave in a non-LL way, but I think the TBC will respect LL. I'll try to set up the experiment exactly as you describe, only different, as usual.

Meanwhile you may (or may not) be interested in this new video, where I used the TBC as a primary in a Tesla power magnifying system in a replication (partial) of gotoluc's and groundloop's work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tW2g4KinuA
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 18, 2008, 05:55:15 PM
I'll try to set up the experiment exactly as you describe, only different, as usual.

I tried to give you enough rope to do things your way. Thanks.  ;)

Quote from: TinselKoala
Meanwhile you may (or may not) be interested in this new video, where I used the TBC as a primary in a Tesla power magnifying system in a replication (partial) of gotoluc's and groundloop's work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tW2g4KinuA

Could you provide some references for us ignorant sods that don't know much about gotoluc or groundloop? Just what is the significance of the experiment?

OC
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on December 28, 2008, 06:23:05 PM
As I feared, all the arcs, sparks, and bright lights have got TK hypnotized. All good fun, but it hasn't answered any of the magnetics questions I posed.

Sigh.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: TinselKoala on December 28, 2008, 06:40:44 PM
Yes, you won't believe what I scored yesterday at Active Surplus. For some reason, they have a bunch of brand new bright and shiny Taiwanese-made hubcaps of the "baby moon" variety. For a buck and a half each!! These are incredible, shiny, smooth, no detail markings. Two together make an ideal capacitative top-load for high-voltage work. I plan to use several of them making table-top Van De Graaff machines to add to my electrostatic zoo. Meanwhile I have taped 2 together to make a beautiful flying saucer-shaped topload for my current (pun intended) set of experiments.

@0c: I guess that, since I'm paying my own salary, I get to choose what I work on, and when. Let's see: So far, in seeking to answer your questions, I have constructed 3 unique coils and pressed a 4th one into service; I have constructed and begun to characterize an appropriate driver/pulser module that is capable of driving what is essentially a dead short, to RMS voltages in excess of 100 V; I've spent time shopping and thinking and studying; and some other stuff like that there. If you want to get sarcastic about any "lack of progress" that you might perceive, perhaps I can go and find something else to work on for a while, while you re-evaluate your attitude toward what I am (or am not) doing.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: mondrasek on December 28, 2008, 08:34:41 PM
TK,

I, for one, am enjoying the hell out of what you have shown so far.  Really interesting, IMHO.

It's always possible to get back to the question from which you strayed.  But how much "science" would have been missed if one didn't investigate every unexpected phenomenon one discovers along the way?

Thanks for sharing in such an informative way.

M.
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: 0c on August 26, 2009, 06:39:10 PM
I just became aware of a recent and closely related demonstration on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4A1UUIBDv0

There are a number of differences. I like ZEROPOINT132's approach to spinning a magnet. It's simple and elegant. But it has a problem as well.

The poles tend to orient up and down (watch when he adds the paperclip) instead of towards the coil. My approach had a freely spinning diametrically magnetized magnet mounted on the end of a pendulum and oriented so the poles would spin directly facing the coil, which should produce a spinning field with more oomph per pass.

The experiment in the video uses 2 coils and a reed switch. My experiment uses a Tesla Bifilar Coil. I never considered using 2 coils or a switch. I was mostly thinking about the interaction of the fields WRT the coil and the magnetic behavior of a Tesla Bifilar Coil.

ZEROPOINT132 goes a step further and uses a simple LED to demonstrate the current generation, instead of using a scope to see it. I didn't realize it might generate enough juice to light an LED.

Hats off to ZEROPOINT132!

(TK, you could have been there first.)
Title: Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
Post by: X00013 on August 27, 2009, 04:58:01 AM
If TK has magic, I'm OK with that, but if he has unicorns in his back yard I will be so pissed.