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Author Topic: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench  (Read 29667 times)

Offline ramset

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2008, 05:00:16 PM »
Yes it is big perhaps Bill can rec comend a place to start?
Chet

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2008, 05:41:56 PM »
@ Chet:

Thanks for posting the link.  That is the topic started by LocalJoe.  A lot of good experiments and information there.

The topic I started is: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4455.0

Sorry I didn't hunt up the links in my earlier post.

As far as what to read and what to skip....very hard to say.  A lot of good information is buried in along with our learning curve and patent research.  A lot of good folks contributed to both of these topics.  I just think it's cool to wind a coil and be able to produce numbers like 1.8 vdc and 80+ milliamps for free.

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2008, 06:55:38 PM »
Yep, that's certainly pretty cool. You should have no trouble at all lighting some LED's with that.

But I don't think those are the type of bifilar coils that 0c is asking about. We are talking about series-connected flat bifilars like Tesla described in 512340.

I think the coils you are describing are wound differently and use different materials. I would like to know the details of the wiring; I couldn't find it from a casual skim thru those threads.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2008, 07:15:41 PM »
Tinselkoala:

The coils are simple.  copper wire (solid, bare, not magnet wire) and iron wire. (also non-coated)  These are wound bifilar style around an iron core. (large mass, very high iron content)  Now for the hard part.  Nathan Stubblefield used cotton insulation between his core and the fe and cu wires and between the cu and fe wires themselves, and the layers too.
Back in his days, late 1800's, cotton insulation was just about all there was.  You can still find it today but very expensive. (It comes in tube form and you slip it over your wires as you wind)  Some of us cut cotton strips and wound that around the wires while winding but that makes the coil pretty bulky in my opinion.

What I did was to insulate the core with cotton cloth, wound my first layer of copper and iron together and then, took cotton cord and forced it in-between the wires by turning and winding the coil. (hard to explain)  This isolated the cu and fe wires.  Then wrapped cotton material around 1st layer, repeated everything for the following layers.

These types of coils put out power when totally dry.  When moist, the output really goes up.  When planted in the ground and left for a while, you get the best output by far.  One of our experimenters wound a Tesla type pancake coil but I don't think he got any decent results out of it, I am not sure.

Funny thing is, we found (Thanks Hans) photos of Stubblefield and Tesla together.  Stubblefield is honored here in KY (Murry) as the father of radio.  In actuality, he invented the cell phone and this was in about 1890.

Fun stuff.

Bill

Offline 0c

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2008, 08:36:28 PM »
Thanks for the reference but a Stubblefield coil is NOT the type of bifilar coil I was referring to. A Stubblefield coil is actually wound so the current flows in opposite direction in the parallel wires and cancels out almost all magnetic effects. A Tesla bifilar coil is wound so the current is flowing in the same direction in the parallel wires and can enhance the magnetic effects, at least with AC current. Part of this experiment is to determine whether DC or transient DC pulses will also show any enhanced magnetic effects.

For those interested in Stubblefield bifilar coils, I have gone through the first 1,000 posts in that thread and here are the most significant posts I could find:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg64060#msg64060
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg66123#msg66123
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3500.msg67858#msg67858

Repeat, the experiments in this thread are about the Tesla bifilar coil, NOT the Stubblefield coil.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2008, 10:17:39 PM »
Oc:

The Stubblefield coil is actually a self-energizing electro magnet in itself.  It is also a primary which, with the addition of a secondary, can produce ac.  We did many experiments using a compass and the results were both interesting and confusing. But, if this does not help in your research, I can understand that.  Stubblefield's coil is the only one I am familiar with.  I never tried Tesla's.

Bill


Offline 0c

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2008, 04:01:28 AM »
The Stubblefield coil is actually a self-energizing electro magnet in itself.  It is also a primary which, with the addition of a secondary, can produce ac.  We did many experiments using a compass and the results were both interesting and confusing. But, if this does not help in your research, I can understand that.  Stubblefield's coil is the only one I am familiar with.  I never tried Tesla's.

Stubblefield coils may very well be worth looking into, but should be under a different topic. This is the "Magnet Motors" topic, the "Magnetics Workbench" thread, and the question at the moment is about "magnetic properties" of a Tesla bifilar coil, which TK has already constructed.

If you have questions about Tesla bifilar coils, now is the time to ask. Let's see if we can learn something here before things get too chaotic, OK?

0c

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2008, 04:58:11 AM »
Now, now, let's not get snippy. I think maybe 0c isn't getting enough sleep. Neither am I, for that matter.
I didn't have time to break out the big guns today, but I did manage to test the two coils on the little GenRad RCLomometer.
The coils don't differ much at the two frequencies used, 120 Hz and 1 kHz. The Tesla bifilar reads 0.032 milliHenrys at 120 Hz and 0.0141 mH at 1 kHz. The pancake coil reads 0.033 mH at 120 Hz and 0.0151 mH at 1 kHz. I couldn't get a good capacitance reading on this instrument.
I'll try some active experimentation tomorrow if I have a chance. The local TC expert was watching and expressed an interest, and mentioned the patent, and we talked about the interturn capacitance for a while. It's been a long time, but I seem to remember this could be useful...

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2008, 05:32:22 AM »
Yes, snippy is a good word.  I am sorry I tried to help.  Good luck to you.

Bill

Offline 0c

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2008, 05:34:43 AM »
Now, now, let's not get snippy. I think maybe 0c isn't getting enough sleep.

Sorry 'bout that. You're right about the sleep.  :(

Offline Paul-R

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2008, 04:03:20 PM »
Now for the hard part.  Nathan Stubblefield used cotton insulation between his core and the
fe and cu wires and between the cu and fe wires themselves, and the layers too....
This is probably a rather facile question, but are you sure that he was not simply using
the best insulation then available? Is there not an easier and better solution nowadays?
Like the usual painting with varnish or some paper fibre based idea?
Paul.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2008, 04:31:46 PM »
Bill, I for one am glad for your input. Please keep reading and commenting. I am truly interested in the Stubblefield bifilars, but they are different from what we are talking about here. I'm just trying to characterize these coils, and 0c has some specific things to look at with this configuration.
But I'll be winding some Stubblefield coils too. I have lots of strange wires, all different materials and insulations (enamel, silk, cotton single and double, rayon, gutta-percha, rubber, etc.) that might be interesting to examine in those configurations.
Please don't go away.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2008, 05:46:24 AM »
@ TinselKoala:

Thank you, I appreciate that.  If I can help, just let me know.

@ Paul-R:

Yes, he used what was available at the time but the cotton use is very important.  I believe some of his coils used silk as well.  The key is to use an insulation that isolates the conductors and yet allows moisture to pass through.  Some of the experimenters attempted coils using modern materials and they did not work at all.  A few tried plastic mesh which allowed moisture to pass but still separated the conductors and I believe this worked, to a point but it did not hold moisture like the cotton does.  This is very important when placing in the ground.  Feel free to try some other things as we certainly did not try everything.  But we did see the need for the moisture holding properties of the cotton, or similar material in our experiments.

Bill

Offline 0c

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2008, 06:11:05 AM »
@TK,

Whenever you are ready, could you see what shape magnetic field is produced with a small DC current? Is it evenly distributed above the coil? Does it intensify towards the center? Does a ferromagnetic core (steel washer) concentrate the field towards the center? Is there a difference in field intensity or distribution between the two coils?

Thanks,
0c

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: TinselKoala's Magnetics Workbench
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2008, 05:32:38 AM »
I haven't had a chance to map the fields like you requested, 0c, but here is a video of a comparison I did that might be of interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvb39SwTXBE