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### Author Topic: Tesla's self-actuating generator  (Read 13271 times)

#### jandell254

• Newbie
• Posts: 11
##### Tesla's self-actuating generator
« on: November 24, 2008, 06:56:00 PM »
I found an interesting idea for a PM machine suggested by Nikola Tesla, see if you can find a flaw in it...

- The efficiency n of a perfect heat engine, which converts heat flow from a temperature gradient to mechanical work, is
n = 1 - Tc/Th
where Tc is the temperature of the heat sink and Th is the temperature of the heat source.

- The efficiency of a perfect heat pump (like a fridge), which creates temperature gradients, is given by
n = Tc / (Th - Tc) .
Note: n can be greater than 100% for heat pumps, and is actually called a coefficient of performance (COP).

If 100J of heat energy flows from ambient temperature (300 Kelvin) to a heat sink at 50K (liquid hydrogen), the heat pump will transform 100X (1 - 50/300) J = 83.3J of heat energy from this flow into mechanical energy. This leave 16.7J to flow into the heat sink.

If 1 heat pump pumps the 16.7J out to maintain the heat sink at 50K, it will use 16.7/ (50 / (300 - 50))J = 83.3J of energy, exactly balancing out the energy gained by the heat engine.

If instead 5 heat pumps in series are used to pump the heat out, at a temperature gradient of 50K each, they will have an overall COP of 0.5 and will use 16.7/ 0.5 = 33.4J to keep the heat sink at 50K.

Therefore, using 5 heat pumps, the net energy gained is 83.3 - 33.4 = 49.9J

Therefore for every 100J sucked out of the surrounding ambient temperature, 49.9J is converted into mechanical energy. Heat engines/pumps can only be less than 100% efficient even in principle, but real machines could still be made efficient enough for this to work.

Note that the generator is not actually a perpetual motion machine, the heat source (the warm atmosphere) is ultimately provided by the sun.

#### HeairBear

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 440
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2008, 07:16:03 PM »
Fast forward to 2:50 of the video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPj7kODLW3E&feature=related

I understand how it works and here it shows it can work with freon. I'm sure there are a few different refrigerants we can substitute for freon. Any ideas on how to build a toy version for a demonstration?

#### pese

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1597
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2008, 07:49:11 PM »
Frigidaire oder  KÃ¼hlanlage heizt den Raum, Keller oder die Umgebung auf = Verlust) (oder kÃ¼hlt bei WÃ¤rmepumpe ab - weil WÃ¤rme entzogen wird )Dass heisst:
Eine WÃ¤rmepumpe . kÃ¼hlt die Aussenluft oder Erdreich ab (da wo der Energie-Austausch statt.

Diese Energie ist nicht FREI ( auch wenn man die ( noch ) nicht bezahlen muss. Sonnenlicht ist auch noch gratis, wÃ¤hrend Wind "entnehmen"  in einigen Staaten schon bezahlen muss !!. (Wie fasst Ã¼berall die Wasserkraft)
(Das erhÃ¶ht die Wirtschaftskraft einer Nation, wie auch deren BÃ¼rokratie. Dies sind wichtige Faktoren , die dem "sparen" auch Grenzen setzen !

Dieae " dumme " Rechnung. WÃ¤rmepumpe bringt xx% Gewinn , ist einfach nicht wahr.
Der Strom der gebraucht wird, dient nur zum Pumpen und ist reiner Verlust. den hiermit wird ja keine WÃ¤rme oder KÃ¤lte erzeugt !!
(Was auch mÃ¶glich wÃ¤re, aber nicht getan wird !)
Die  WÃ¤rme  KÃ¤lte-Mengen wandeln (pumpen) um Energie (aus der Umgebung zu erhalten um diese  gratis und unbezahlt wegzunehmen , hat NICHTS mit der PUMPE zu tun, sondern nur mit dem TemperaturgefÃ¤lle (Input/Output) und gÃ¼nstigen Werten der Verdampfungstemperatur die durch Druck beeinflusst wird).
Das hier die Natur aus dem Gleichgewicht kommt - ist eine andere Sache.

Frei = unbezahlt die Umgebung nutzen
wÃ¤re mÃ¶glich die Pumpe in eine Windmill zu setzen, so wie es
Lee Bell in seiner URL fÃ¼r  "compresses air"zeigte.
-------------------------
An Frigidaire is als heating the the ambient room !!
So this pump System is only cooling or heating the room, basement or the environment THIS are = losses). Also the Pump himself produce ONLY losses an is not usede to produce Energy in any way

That means:
A heat pump. Outdoor air cools the soil (earth) or from (as where the energy exchange.

This energy is NOT FREE (even if you do not (yet) pay. Sunlight is still free, while (also small)Windmills "shows" in some states already pay!. (Like everywhere summarizes the hydropower)
(This increases the economic strength of a nation, as well as bureaucracy. These are important factors associated with the "save" also set boundaries!

FREE Heat-Pump... :
This is a "stupid" bill, that an heat pump brings xx% profit, is simply not true.
The flow of needed, only serves to pump and is pure loss. This pump never produce an enrergy ! _ ONLY LOSSES" to tranfer stranger engies, by compressing and evaporating !
(What would (with pump only) be also possible, but not done!)
The cold-heat convert quantities (pump) to energy (from the environment to receive these away for free and unpaid, has nothing to do with the PUMP to do, but only with low temperatur-drift (Input v/s Output) and  so ,low values of the evaporation will be influenced by pressure).
BUT the natural-ambient temperature comes out of balance - anyway !!.

FREE  = unpaid the environment
would be possible to set the pump into a Windmill !
The way that Lee Bell done this  in his URL for his "compress air" showed.

G.P.
Google translation, was an little bit "modified" for understanding. I hope thid os OK.

#### Bob Smith

• Hero Member
• Posts: 732
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2008, 02:14:28 AM »
Bob Smith

#### Pirate88179

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8366
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2008, 02:24:17 AM »
http://www.instructables.com/id/The-Sterling-Engine-absorb-energy-from-candles-c/

Above is the link to the Instructables version of a Sterling Engine.  It has complete plans and photos.  I built mine out of a tuna can and a metal can lid.  Nice little project and with a little care, these can be very efficient.

Bill

#### HeairBear

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 440
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2008, 02:29:14 AM »
I have one like this... The power of temperature differential! Very cool!

(http://www.icefoundry.org/images/stirling_engine.jpg)

#### pese

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1597
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2008, 08:59:06 AM »
Bob Smith

Why not.

See to the compressorless frigudaires.
that work only with an s,all heat-source.
loke 60 watt electric heater - like an small gaz-flame !
why not solarheat (in adrika shure the cheatest source ...
as transfer gaz, you can also use buta filled inside the tubings wit 2.2 bar !

Pese

This technik is not belived by industry, because to simly ...

#### Thaelin

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 1079
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2008, 10:33:56 AM »
The stirling motor can be ramped up to a very sizeable  unit. In a location
where you have high heat, they work great. Never understood why they are
not more put to use. Even if you were where it is fairly cool, a solar reflector
to the right spot on it will make it fly.

thaelin

#### tinu

• Hero Member
• Posts: 630
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2008, 02:10:24 PM »
I found an interesting idea for a PM machine suggested by Nikola Tesla, see if you can find a flaw in it...

Interesting idea as a mind exercise but unfortunately not feasible.
Something is wrong in math. It boils down to nasty sums (or integrals) but spreadsheet may be helpful. Check the quoted part again, please:

If instead 5 heat pumps in series are used to pump the heat out, at a temperature gradient of 50K each, they will have an overall COP of 0.5 and will use 16.7/ 0.5 = 33.4J to keep the heat sink at 50K.

I assume you missed to increment the heat to be removed starting with the second pump in series. The first one indeed pumps 16.66J but the second one pumps more (33.33J), the third pumps even more by again adding 16.66J  and so on.

Cheers,
Tinu

#### jandell254

• Newbie
• Posts: 11
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2008, 05:07:39 PM »
Thanks for all the replies.  I really think this machine works in principle, and after a few engineering challenges have been overcome I'm sure it could work in practice as well.

Interesting idea as a mind exercise but unfortunately not feasible.
Something is wrong in math. It boils down to nasty sums (or integrals) but spreadsheet may be helpful. Check the quoted part again, please:

There is no difficult maths involved, just use a few different values of Tc and Th to get an idea of the efficiency of the heat pump and the heat engine at different temperatures.

Quote
I assume you missed to increment the heat to be removed starting with the second pump in series. The first one indeed pumps 16.66J but the second one pumps more (33.33J), the third pumps even more by again adding 16.66J  and so on.

Cheers,
Tinu

No, 16.66J is the total energy used by all 5 pumps, each individual pump has an average COP of 3.  I actually made a small mistake in my first post, I was in a bit of a rush.  The calculations for the COP of the 5 pumps in series are shown below:

Pump 1: COP = Tc/(Th-Tc) = 50 / (100 - 50) = 1
Pump 1: COP = 100 / (150 - 100) = 2
Pump 3: COP = 3
Pump 4: COP = 4
Pump 5: COP = 5

Average COP of each individual pump = (1+2+3+4+5) / 5 = 3
Therefore the 5 pumps in series act like one pump, pumping across a temperature difference of 250K, with a COP of 3 / 5 = 0.6
So the COP is 0.6, not 0.5.  It actually makes the machine work a tiny bit better.

As for the use of Freon, that wouldn't work at the very low temperatures required.  Normal refrigerants like that can cool down to -40 Centigrade (260K), apparently.  Consider a temperature difference of say 40K, with Th = 300K and Tc = 260K.
If 5 heat pumps are used, the total COP will be 6.9.
The efficiency of the Stirling engine will be tiny: 1 - 260/300 = 0.13, or 13%.

With 87J getting past to the heat sink, it will take 87 / 6.9 = 12.6J to pump it out again.  You would only get 13 - 12.6 = 0.4J out for every 100J of heat energy passing through, and this is considering that your heat pumps/engines are perfect.

This means that very low temperatures are required for this to work properly, since Stirling engines and heat pumps are not very efficient in practice due to things like friction and other dissipative forces, so there are a lot of engineering problems to be overcome, and no low-powered test version can be made.

I wanted to show it could work in principle, hopefully once it comes to the attention of other people it will eventually be built by someone with enough money to hire the engineers to put the idea into practice.

#### tinu

• Hero Member
• Posts: 630
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2008, 10:00:15 PM »
@jandell254,

Pump 1 is COP 1, hence in order to pump 16.66J from Tcold to Tintermediate1 (Tint) it uses another 16.66J. So, you have now 33.33J on Tint1 that has to be pumped to Tint2. Second pump is COP 2 and thatâ€™s why it will require again 16.66J to pump 33.33J from Tint1 to Tint2 (If it was COP 1 it would require 33.33J). But also the work consumed by pump #2 is transferred as heat to Tint2, so youâ€™ll have to pump 33.33J plus 16.66J from Tint2 to Tint3.
And so on. Itâ€™s already said in my previous post and I donâ€™t think I have time to detail it again.
Problem is math can not be beaten nor cheatedâ€¦

Cheers,
Tinu

#### jandell254

• Newbie
• Posts: 11
##### Re: Tesla's self-actuating generator
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2008, 04:32:32 PM »
So much for that idea then... When will I learn that PM machines don't work...

What I find interesting now is that Tesla himself actually thought it could work and spent some years trying to develop this machine.  If you're wondering where Tesla mentions this machine, look up an article called "The problem of increasing human energy" by NT, its somehwere on the internet, and in the article look up "obtaining energy from the ambient medium" (the article is quite long).