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Author Topic: would this setup work?  (Read 4657 times)

Offline Raish

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would this setup work?
« on: November 22, 2008, 05:07:01 PM »
Here's the setup:
(http://home.arcor.de/ravain/PMall50.jpg)
The permanent magnets A1..A4 as well as the smaller and weaker (maybe 1/4 strength) magnets c1..c4 are fixed in position. The inner circle is the rotor with the magnet z.

The Idea is to have the strong magnets push the rotor magnet away in one direction but stop them from doing so in the other direction by putting the weaker magnets in the way.

The diagram on the rotor shows the force on the rotor in rotary direction at each position the way i think it should look like (i didn't calculate anything)

So .. could this work? Would this work?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 05:43:30 PM by Raish »

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would this setup work?
« on: November 22, 2008, 05:07:01 PM »

Offline nievesoliveras

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2008, 08:01:26 PM »
Must of the time what happen with that kind of configuration is that the magnets after the initial rotation find an equilibrium state that is called the sticky point. It could be that by using the weaker magnets you can solve that problem. But, Must of the time, it does not work.

Good luck though!

Offline gyulasun

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 09:58:56 PM »
@Raish,

I more or less agree with your force diagram,  red colour shows force behavior against rotation and green colour shows the aiding force behavior I suppose.
If so then the question is whether the rotor is able to accelerate to enough speed so that it will be able to defeat the repel forces you indicated in red.  Unfortunately, normally this does not happen and even though you may play and help ease the problem of getting through the "red" area by making the mass of the rotor to be advantageous (flywheel effect) probably you are forced to use some extra pulse energy for switching on an electromagnet at or near the most "reddish" place to smooth or reduce the repel forces.

No theory can substitute reality so the best is to build your setup and gain practical knowledge.  If You happen to have or collect discarded floppy disk drive hardware, you can find in them good ball bearing "hubs" for your rotor and you could easily attach an unused compact disk (CD) to it for holding your Z magnet.

rgds,  Gyula

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2008, 09:58:56 PM »
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Online Paul-R

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2008, 04:06:40 PM »
You might need some mumetal shielding to get you out of a sticky spot.
Paul

Offline Raish

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 09:01:00 PM »
red colour shows force behavior against rotation and green colour shows the aiding force behavior I suppose.
Exactly.

No theory can substitute reality so the best is to build your setup and gain practical knowledge.  If You happen to have or collect discarded floppy disk drive hardware, you can find in them good ball bearing "hubs" for your rotor and you could easily attach an unused compact disk (CD) to it for holding your Z magnet.
Thanks for the tips. Since noone seems to totally disagree with the design idea i'll take your advice and do some experimenting.
I happen to have had an old floppy drive - now only some minor parts like the magnets are missing :)

How would you attach the CD - just glue it to the thingie, or is there a better way?

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2008, 09:01:00 PM »
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Offline Raish

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2008, 10:05:24 PM »
You might need some mumetal shielding to get you out of a sticky spot.

Interesting, i thought there was no material to dampen a magnetic field ..

What effect does the mu-metal have exactly?
Could i just put mu-metal in the way of the magnets to stop them from pushing the rotor in the wrong direction like this:
(http://home.arcor.de/ravain/PMmu.jpg)
Or would putting mu-metal anywhere near the magnets just lower the field strength everywhere equally?

Offline Low-Q

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 10:18:40 PM »
Hi there!

1. There is no point in trying to directing or angle magnets - like you do with a watering can to controll the direction of the water.

2. A shield will just alter the path of magnetism. "Shielding" the stator magnets will also impact on the rotor magnets. Even if you weaken the magnetism on one side, both rotor and stator magnet will be attractive to that metal accordingly. So no net changes are made - at least weaken the repulsion in the right direction equally to the less repulsion in the wrong direction.
Using weaker magnets just make the magnets less workable, and that in turn will also force the rotor to a stop at the corresponding weaker sticky spot.

You setup will not work.

Br.

Vidar


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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2008, 10:18:40 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2008, 11:59:42 PM »
@Raish

I think there is a threaded hole in the middle of such floppy hub and if you have a fitting screw into it, then you may "sandwich" the CD with a smaller hard paper disc onto the hub's surface.  You may also use hard paper disc instead of the CD if you wish to change diameter.
It would be better to use relatively long magnets at all places so that the opposite poles could well be further out from the interacting rotor-stator poles, you will certainly have more trouble with relatively short magnets.  On long magnet I mean say at least 3-4 centimeter, the cross section can be small, say 3-4 mm x 3-4 mm square or even cylinder shape.  Also, no need for Neodymium, ceramic/ferrite magnets are good for a start and cheaper.

I cannot say if your setup works or not (normally they do not) but one thing is sure: you can collect experience only by personal building. Introducing a soft magnetic material like a transformer laminate or mu-metal or a simple soft iron plate is a good idea and you have 3 variables: thickness (by layering), size of the plate (length and width) and the distances.  You may achieve a situation when the Z magnet coming towards the shield by momentum and not by attraction and will kick out when leaving the central line of an A magnet. This is not easy to achive and needs much tinkering at each sticky point.  I believe this,  I have not built your setup, sorry.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline molux

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 06:15:06 PM »
@Raish,

Your setup look like à simple version of the biggest magnetic motor group called "Magnetic Wankel"
(Look here : http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2451.0.html)

There are an equilibrum probleme from the magntic field.
If you find a good shield to cut the equilibrum, your right ! (Tell us here ;)

It existe an other kind of solution, is to unbalence the equilibrum, like the Albert Michel Motor:
(Look here http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2519.0)
The Eletric replication, put juste a little amount of power to cut the equilibrum at precise time

Have nice day

Molux

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2008, 06:15:06 PM »
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Offline nievesoliveras

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Offline CrazyEwok

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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 04:37:34 AM »
Some minor modifications and reasoning for them you might want to try in the testing phases...
1. utilizing the "repulsion is stronger than attraction in magnets" statement. Set up your outer magnets at a specific angles and have the pole aligned around the edge (90 degs on what you have now) this will provide you with 2 forms of movement. 1. attraction on the way to the magnet and 2.on the way out from the magnet.
2. Sticky point. Try placing multiple magnets on the inner section. The positioning of these magnets is your main thing. You need to place them so that there is a form of propulsion (attraction/repulsion) where your sticky point is for each magnets passing cycle. Good luck with that one.
3. You have magnets and movement. if you only need a small boost you could try adding an electrical component to try and capture some of that movement and pulse it into electromagnets (this would require timed switches and some serious thought into capacitors)

if you want to keep is all mechanical instead of electrical. A little more complicated might be having the inner magnets on a "tilt/swivel table" so they can rotate slightly but gravity will cause them to fall into natural positions ( you could use this to try and rotate the magnets a little to reduce your negative forces) either way this is one hell of a project and if you get it up and running it will be awesome to see!!! good luck


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Re: would this setup work?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2008, 04:37:34 AM »
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