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Author Topic: Joule Thief  (Read 6332329 times)

Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16530 on: June 09, 2014, 06:04:37 AM »
Here is a web page that describes a 0.5 volt to 5-6volt booster circuit.

http://www.discovercircuits.com/H-Corner/05-6-con.htm

Quote from page.
Quote
It turns out that TI's 74AUC family of parts can work down to about 0.45 volts. I tried one of their single schmitt trigger parts and found I was able to make on oscillator function nicely at 0.5 volts.

I was thinking of trying a CD4049 to see what it could operate at, I have some 74 parts but not many,

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MarkE

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16531 on: June 09, 2014, 07:44:11 AM »
A 74, 74LS, etc 5V series TTL or 4000 series CMOS will not work. 

The key to Dave Johnson's circuit is the ultra low voltage logic gate:  Digikey P/N   296-13169-1-ND  This is one gate in a package the size of an SOT-23 transistor but with five leads instead of three.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G04DCKR/296-13169-1-ND/484306

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74auc1g04.pdf

The device is rated for a power supply voltage down to 0.8V, but will go lower.



Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16532 on: June 09, 2014, 03:10:27 PM »
Yeah that part is the one to get and should be cheap 57 cents each or 40 cents each if you get 10.  :) With one of those parts we
should be able to make an oscillator similar to the one below but run it from less than 1 volt.

I've made an efficient oscillator circuit from a CD4049 chip and it works ok at 2.5 volts but won't work much lower.

After adjusting it a bit I got about 90% efficiency lighting 2 x 5 mm LED's from the 2.59 volt supply. I knocked off 0.05 volts from
the output so it didn't look so efficient, hahahahaha see the shot says 8 v.

The input was 3.3 mA at 2.59 v = 0.00855 W. Input fairly smooth. Measurements done with an accurate DMM and current sensed
across a 1 Ohm resistor.

The output was 1 mA at 7.95 v =  0.00795 W.  Output was DC in a cap as the shot shows.

0.00795 w / 0.00855 w = 93 % efficient. LED's were bright enough to leave dots on my eyes.  ;D

At other less than ideal adjustments I got consistently 60 to 70 % efficient.

First shot shows the collector waveform in yellow and the capacitor voltage that the LED's are running from in blue,
8v across 2 x 5 mm LED's.. I went for zero volts at the collector switching in the first shot.

Second shot is the oscillator signal at the capacitor Blue trace, (second gate of three) and the Base drive in Yellow.

Third shot show the frequency backed off and the coil ringing.

Fourth is the circuit running, the capacitance is 200 pF and I set up the adjustable circuit from the CMOS Cookbook,
the right pot determines the output low time and the left pot determines the output high time, this can be reversed
by using another inverter gate.

The high time pulse output can go to as narrow as 1 uS to over 90% duty and the frequency from 25 kHz up to 180 kHz as it is.

I used only three gates on the bottom side of the HEX buffer.

..

Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16533 on: June 09, 2014, 05:36:57 PM »
Here's the whole show almost. I made a simple JT with a few extra turns on the base trigger winding and used 1 K resistance. It's working about 40 kHz and boosting the 1.2 volts to 5.8 volts for the LED driver which is now driving 3 LED's with 14 volts.  ;D

What a hoot.

First shot is the JT collector wave form and the final LED voltage.

Second one is the CMOS driven transistor collector wave form, (can use mosfet now "logic level").

and the set up. 

Interestingly the LED from ground to base is lighting up, ( it's got the end that usually goes to the positive going to circuit ground and the other end to base,  :-\ if I put a diode there it goes up to a higher frequency.

EDIT: It works better without the LED and 2.2 k base resistance, now it's boosting 7.6 volts for the other circuit.

Added circuit so far, I'll try to see how low it drains the battery to.
..

P.S. Final circuit could have a three terminal output or transformer output. A three terminal output would have the circuit ground the output diode and the positive rail available to use as outputs. if we want to charge a battery that is a lower voltage than the supply voltage we can connect by the it negative to the positive rail of the circuit and charge from the output diode, if the battery to be charged is more than the supply voltage or we want to dump the cap into a load or just run LED's ect. we can connect the load by the negative to the circuit ground and charge from the diode/output capacitor. Then a divided voltage could control these logic devices to some degree. There is still three more logic gates on the CD4049 HEX buffer.  :)

The low voltage part that Mark.E linked to might only have one or two gates or "Schmitt" triggers (didn't look yet :-[) so we might need several. I'll try to get 20.

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TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16534 on: June 09, 2014, 06:50:48 PM »
Note that in "CMOS osc 3" you have a very clear ringing that has a frequency very near 400 kHz. This is the natural resonant frequency. At present this is a loss, as power  sloshes back and forth dissipating a little on each cycle and the amplitude of the ringing diminishes to zero before the next "push" happens. 

Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16535 on: June 09, 2014, 07:57:12 PM »
Yeah I realize that loss, and I try to adjust it so the ringing is gone and when I adjust it further to cramp up the wave form it raises the amplitude. And it's at that setting it seems most efficient, no ringing at all because no time for ringing. I adjusted it back just to reduce the power output but then the JT's boosted voltage became higher anyway  ;D and the output from the second oscillator stayed just a bit less, not much, so better to run it without the ringing. The test coil is a ringy coil. That will be changed out for a smaller one.

Could probably run a low power micro there if the voltage could be controlled from the initial boost side.

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TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16536 on: June 09, 2014, 08:24:34 PM »
"Ringy" is good because it means high Q which means small losses per cycle in the resonant ringing. On the other hand eliminating ringing by shortening the time between stimulating pulses is good because then you are approaching true resonant pumping, where a tiny push at the exact right time keeps a high-amplitude response going and this is not allowed to decay.
I think. Maybe.


mscoffman

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16537 on: June 09, 2014, 08:55:45 PM »
A 74, 74LS, etc 5V series TTL or 4000 series CMOS will not work. 

The key to Dave Johnson's circuit is the ultra low voltage logic gate:  Digikey P/N   296-13169-1-ND  This is one gate in a package the size of an SOT-23 transistor but with five leads instead of three.

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G04DCKR/296-13169-1-ND/484306

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74auc1g04.pdf

The device is rated for a power supply voltage down to 0.8V, but will go lower.

 
A 74x14 hysteresis inverter version exists too.
 
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G14DBVR/296-12880-6-ND/1634643
 
 
 
 

MarkE

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16538 on: June 09, 2014, 10:00:09 PM »

 
A 74x14 hysteresis inverter version exists too.
 
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/SN74AUC1G14DBVR/296-12880-6-ND/1634643
One would have to experiment to see if the AUC14 works better at below spec supply voltage than the AUC04 .  The hysteresis of the '14 will probably make it harder to start oscillating.

Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16539 on: June 09, 2014, 11:42:02 PM »
Umm I scoped the base of the JT transistors base and it is going negative by almost 10 volts when the transistor is off !
What's the go with that - is that ok ? No wonder it lights the red LED backwards there.

Can I make use of that voltage to bootstrap the JT supply voltage some how ?

....

SeaMonkey

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16540 on: June 10, 2014, 02:05:13 AM »
A certain amount of reverse bias across the Base-Emitter
junction is beneficial as it aids transistor turn-off and
enhances switching efficiency.

If the reverse voltage is too great (ordinarily more than
about 8 Volts) the junction will go into breakdown because
its doping is very similar to a Zener Diode.  If breakdown
occurs at the reverse voltage peaks then undesired and
unpredictable things may happen.


TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16541 on: June 10, 2014, 02:55:35 AM »
Sometimes the NPN transistor will work when it's wired backwards, too: E where C should be and C where E should be. This gives some interesting effects too. Not all transistors in all JT circuits will do this, but when you find one that does it's pretty interesting to fool around with.

I also have one transistor, a 2n2222a, that is "partially failed" and it also does some very interesting things in the Basic JT circuit.


Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16542 on: June 10, 2014, 03:18:15 AM »
Ok Fixed that problem, clamped it at less than 1 volt, and I'm thinking of adding a small inductor (see drawing) I found with a enormous inductance for it's size and turns, must be special core material.

Anyway if I add this inductor at the spot indicated as (A) on the circuit it might help a bit more.

The transistor isn't wired backwards it's 1) emitter, 2) base, 3) collector. all good.  with pnp the emitter goes to most positive, is that right ? Could be confusing.
..

At the moment to get the initial boost to over 5 volts in C3 for the logic circuit I have to stop the pulses from the CD4049 chip by manually holding one of the gate inputs low momentarily, only takes a touch. Needs a fix.
.
Base is blue trace collector is yellow.
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MarkE

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16543 on: June 10, 2014, 03:34:39 AM »
Beware that small coils with large inductance usually also have high resistance and/or low saturation currents.  You should also replace at least D2 with a good Schottky.  A 10BQ015 type such as MicroSemi LSM115 has almost no forward voltage.  The leakage shouldn't hurt you in this application.

Farmhand

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #16544 on: June 10, 2014, 03:53:26 AM »
Yes Mark that coil won't work in a JT for some reason, the resistance is not high, it's fairly thick wire, might need to wind one, maybe a resistor will do. I don't have any Schottkys yet, some ordered but I might get more, this is fun and useful. I need to order the small gate chips so I'll get some of those Schottkys too.

Tinsel I think when I adjust the circuits so that the switch turns on just before the coil finishes discharging then the current is already flowing in the right direction and it gives that push along with it. Even the JT wave form shows that now. You can see that the slope on the decline of the discharge gets clipped by the switch turning back on.

Is that good or better when voltage is zero ?

..

Oh I see, is that transistor bad maybe ? I thought it was happening because of the extra turns on the base trigger coil, the yellow turns are extra ones two blue coils the same on there with the yellow added to the end of one for the base trigger.

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Tinsel with the Logic circuit I can cramp up the wave form by adjusting the frequency/pulse width and clip the back of the discharge off square, which increases the amplitude of the output, and makes it "square" or rectangle.

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P.S.Here's a pic of a few of my small inductors, the little one beside the one with blue tape is about a half inch diameter and
has 1.2 mH inductance but only a few turns and hardly any resistance.
Only 7 turns or so and it is really light, like it's core is not made of normal "metallic like" material.
...

The shot below shows the current through the inductor sensed by a 1 Ohm resistor in the place I marked (A) on the drawing. 1.2 mH.
..
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 06:07:50 AM by Farmhand »