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Author Topic: Joule Thief  (Read 6275649 times)

TinselKoala

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15795 on: November 28, 2012, 04:21:23 PM »
@powercat, thanks, I need to confirm the speculation about the duration with testing with a real 10F cap, but I just can't afford one now. I can get up to about 3.4 Farad with what I've got on hand.

@gadgetmall...that is really cool result, I can't match that yet, I'm not seeing a real recharge although I do see climbing supply voltages on occasion. I have found that if _either_ lead of my bench PS is connected to the circuit, even if the PS is turned off, I get a nice strong light as long as the Earth ground is also connected. I'm finding that any connection to a mains-connected instrument screws up the evaluation; this makes me wish I had a fully isolated scope to play with like the Fluke 199 or some other portables. Alas, the one I used to borrow is not available right now.
If you use a cap in place of the NiCad, do you still see this kind of clear recharge effect?

@all: I am thinking of a circuit (for duplication of LTseung's work)  that will automatically recharge the reservoir cap by briefly connecting it to a battery when the cap's voltage drops below a set limit. I imagine an op-amp comparator, 741 or similar, looking at the cap voltage and comparing that to an adjustable reference voltage. When the comparator flips state, it will trigger a monostable 555 to deliver a pulse (also of adjustable duration) to the gate of a mosfet that will make the battery connection to the cap,  for the duration of the monostable pulse. Cap voltage rises and comparator flips, monostable timer resets when its duration is complete, and system is back at "run" state running on the cap only.
What do you think of this idea, and can anyone help with the circuit design?

gadgetmall

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15796 on: November 28, 2012, 04:38:59 PM »
TK. Yes and No ;) with the 1.2 volt battery removed the light stops bit the voltage stays at .850 and the circuit is still running but no 220 volt light so i think it i try a different led on there it might light it . Also a ground and a small wire on this setup is on the to do list . If you built a crossover with the diode feedback try another diode the opposite way on the other side of the load to the other primary with and with out a disk cap and you will see it rise and not fall .i get even better results with  .00022 or 220pf   also .0001uf

NickZ

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15797 on: November 28, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »
  Gadget and All:
   I have made very close to the same circuit, and I am testing it now.  Although I'm using the TIP 3055, and a 2n4017, and I'm connecting a 1N4148 diode from the secondary coil to the TIP 3055 negative rail. A big magnet is under my ferrite rod coil transformer, which is lighting a 9 led bulb. Some of the leds are burnt on this bulb but nine are still lighting
The diode connection makes a big difference in additional brightness, but the 6 AA batteries power pack gets slightly warm after running the device for a while.
  I'll run this all day and see what happens.
                                                                      Nick



TinselKoala

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15798 on: November 28, 2012, 05:43:59 PM »
@Nick: The white PVC tube is your battery pack?
And what happens if you remove or move the big magnet while the circuit is in operation?
Diode connected at negative rail to which end of secondary, and in what polarity?

FWIW, the 10 mH inductor that I got from a TV chassis and added a secondary to, for my 4 NE2 HVJT using a single 2n3055, has a magnet attached to one end of it, it came that way out of the TV. And another, smaller version from a smaller TV set, that I am about to wind with a secondary, came with  _two_ magnets, one on each end of the ferrite spool bobbin.
I think this is done to bias the core, or to move it closer to full saturation, so that only little currents in the coil can push it over the edge. This bias will be unidirectional with the single magnet, I think: current in one direction saturates, current in the other "desaturates" the core. With two magnets there are lots of combinations for effects, more than I can consider right now, need more coffee first.

gadgetmall

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15799 on: November 28, 2012, 06:01:59 PM »
Tk . are those old color Tv's ? I am an x tv repair man  and that is the delay line ?. I did not know they had magnets on them .Now i wil have to hunt for a relic . I threw hundreds of them away three years ago ;(

NickZ .. good luck . i think you are using to much juice and that light is bright though . Yes let us know the start volts and the end volts ...


Mine has climbed to 1.272 from 1.228 and still rising . Not much light on 8 led 220 bulb but the amazing thing is it is a COLD circuit like really colder than the room if i shoot it with a laser thermometer. The other ones ran a few degrees above ambient .

Mine is boxed now and setting in my room by itself . I will check it threwout the day to confirm my findings..

In the meantime i am replicating my replication with the other homemade coil .

TK . if you have a spare delay line i'll trade ya for 4 nice germanium transistors (antiques)  :) they are 39 bucks each now.

gyulasun

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15800 on: November 28, 2012, 06:07:47 PM »
.....

@all: I am thinking of a circuit (for duplication of LTseung's work)  that will automatically recharge the reservoir cap by briefly connecting it to a battery when the cap's voltage drops below a set limit. I imagine an op-amp comparator, 741 or similar, looking at the cap voltage and comparing that to an adjustable reference voltage. When the comparator flips state, it will trigger a monostable 555 to deliver a pulse (also of adjustable duration) to the gate of a mosfet that will make the battery connection to the cap,  for the duration of the monostable pulse. Cap voltage rises and comparator flips, monostable timer resets when its duration is complete, and system is back at "run" state running on the cap only.
What do you think of this idea, and can anyone help with the circuit design?

Hi TinselKoala,

Your above idea reminds me a circuit from Jean-Michel Cour where his goal was to discharge a puffer cap into a battery at determined voltage levels of the puffer cap, see here: http://www.google.com/patents/US20070222411  (he got the patent on it too: US 7928700)

I think you can change that circuit to your exact needs. The patent text includes the complete operation with component values

Gyula

gyulasun

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15801 on: November 28, 2012, 06:22:45 PM »
Tk . are those old color Tv's ? I am an x tv repair man  and that is the delay line ?. I did not know they had magnets on them .Now i wil have to hunt for a relic . I threw hundreds of them away three years ago ;(



Hi Gadget,

They are not delay lines but horizontal linearity correction coils and the permanent magnet attached at one end of the core caused a variable partial saturation in the core, hence the coil inductance could be changed from outside. There was no need for slug-tuning method with a screwdriver because it detuned greatly the linearity coil to make it impossibly for correct adjustment. (and at the 15kHz involved the steel of the screwdriver would have been heated up-- induction heating by eddy current)

Sorry to chime in...

Gyula

EDIT:  sorry but now that I watched Tinsel's earlier video on Joule Thief:Supplement ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ZN5QJZClY&feature=channel&list=UL ) the transformer he showed is a current choke usually placed into the mains voltage input of television receivers or computer monitors to prevent switch mode noise getting out from the set to cause interferience on the mains line voltage and they normally are between 2.2mH to 4.7mH double coils but they have no permanent magnets.  So if Tinsel used the same ferrite choke coils in his Goast circuit then it was not a horisontal linearity correction coil.Of course Tinsel will have a say here.. LOL

totoalas

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15802 on: November 28, 2012, 07:08:37 PM »
Tk . are those old color Tv's ? I am an x tv repair man  and that is the delay line ?. I did not know they had magnets on them .Now i wil have to hunt for a relic . I threw hundreds of them away three years ago ;(

NickZ .. good luck . i think you are using to much juice and that light is bright though . Yes let us know the start volts and the end volts ...


Mine has climbed to 1.272 from 1.228 and still rising . Not much light on 8 led 220 bulb but the amazing thing is it is a COLD circuit like really colder than the room if i shoot it with a laser thermometer. The other ones ran a few degrees above ambient .

Mine is boxed now and setting in my room by itself . I will check it threwout the day to confirm my findings..

In the meantime i am replicating my replication with the other homemade coil .

TK . if you have a spare delay line i'll trade ya for 4 nice germanium transistors (antiques)  :) they are 39 bucks each now.
Nice results   Gadget.....
Hope you can test with solar panels / 12 v   with micro Amps    output      lol
totoalas
 


gadgetmall

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15803 on: November 28, 2012, 07:27:10 PM »
totoalas no i hate 12 volts . A real Joule thief operates at a very low voltage . In fact just enuff to trigger a transistor into switching . Any more than that and you will never know what you got . The fact is most leds are drivable without  any circuit at all above 2.7 volts,some 1.9(red) (clear green). If you use leds as most here will it is important to keep the voltage way below 1.5 volts / After that it is a matter of coil ratio to light anything such as cfl or many led bulbs.
On the other hand there is a place for 12 volts IF you can keep your 12 volts at that voltage and do work at the same time .

But 12 volts in the middle of a field is not easy to come by in an emergency and as of not it just is a big battery .
1.2 volts is easy to obtain from the ground with carbon magnesium rods and they can produce for 5 to 20 years without going "dead"

Hey guys i have replicated my replication and it is repeatable :)   Using other parts like that homemade choke coil and mpsa05 pairs . The schematic is exactly like lasersabers ,no start cap but the difference is the extra diode cap feedback on the oppisite leg. It dam works !  I am glad i kept at it . On my third replication with the Biting Coil . AHHHHH. now this is HIGH voltage with 1.2 volts and i am a bit scare of it cause this is not normal Hf . this is splatter hvrf . ..

totoalas

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15804 on: November 28, 2012, 07:44:08 PM »
Thanks gadget
The reason lasersaber and slayer made some 12v mod for practical home lighting in my place with a 5w 18v solar panel i have 20 Pcs of 220v ac led lamps 160 ma input to a jr ckt 60% light output for outdoor lighting
Theoutput from my jr is connected back   to the battery when the lights are off and charging via in4007 diode 
Same goes with my six filar ss ssg one xtra coil with diode charging back the battery when solar is off   but @ a certain time when no more oscillation takes place

Totoalas

gadgetmall

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15805 on: November 28, 2012, 07:53:48 PM »
Totoalas . Yes i know . I have a 12 volt system also with big panels and wind gen . I keep my light bill low with a 12 volt gridtie and a second 12 volt for inverters ans lighting etc. i agree there is a place for those experiments and also i have done them with a self charging bedini with a "piggy back coil" fun stuff for sure  .

I just like low to no power sources and i believe we just got one . If it every stops charging it must be running in the nano amp range with the dual diode and cap setup that is very dang close to what we are after here . Next test HV shocker! crossover mods.

Keep up the great work guys and lots of experiments left //

totoalas

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15806 on: November 28, 2012, 08:02:42 PM »
Thats great 
lot of options
been using a negative source battery connected to an open ditch canal in a slum area to save on wiring..........and only wire the positive like in automotive wiring for lighting    lol
Since the price of copper had risen    im planning to use a plastic hose filled with water in place of the battery ground    lol
your new set up is what im looking for  / maybe ill add a small solar from old calculators and you have your Eternity light 2        lol

TinselKoala

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15807 on: November 28, 2012, 09:02:26 PM »
@Gadgetmall... 1n80? I'm redrawing your schematic and .... er..... I can't find a diode with that part number, it comes up as a high voltage mosfet. Did you mean 1n60 or 1n34a, germanium diodes?

The only delay lines I've seen in these modern TVs are very strange slabs of glass with tiny wires bonded to them, I don't understand at all. They are very delicate but I think I didn't destroy this one, but I have no idea how to use it. Nothing I've done to it gives a reaction that I can tell. ADL-CN-336L is the part number, made by Ashai Glass Company in Japan.

What is the part number of the germanium transistors you have? My RM503 scope uses 4 in its preamp. I have a couple of 2n2635s left.... But no, thanks for your kind offer, I'd feel really badly knowing that the transistors cost so much. If you need this silly delay line I'll be happy to give it to you.


@gyulasun: No, in the LS ghostlight/crossover circuit I am using an E-core transformer-type thing from the TV, it has a primary of a smaller number of turns of thick wire like #24 and a lot of turns of very fine wire, #32 or finer. It's wrapped up in plastic tape so I really have no idea of the turns ratio except that there are a lot of the finer wire turns.

I have two of the coils in the resonance video, with the 1:1 windings and rectangular ferrite loops, they work well in basic JTs for LED lighting. I showed the smaller one in the "determining resonance" video. On my ProsKit inductance meter each coil measures about 21 milliHy. This meter is weird though... every time I measure a factory-marked inductor the meter agrees with the marking very closely if not exactly, in all its ranges. When I measure random or home made inductors.... it can be wildly off. I dunno.

My favorite TV coils are the ones with the magnets, as I used in the 4x NE2 JT.



NickZ

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15808 on: November 28, 2012, 11:27:55 PM »
  TinselKoala:
   To answer your questions... Yes, the white pvc is my 6 AA battery pack, it can be made in bigger sizes for C or D cells, and can be 6v or 12v or higher voltages if needed. The screw caps keep the cells tight, and has adjustable screws on the ends for connections. Works well, and costs me nothing to make it. It is also rechargeable from AC wall adapters, or solar panel sources. Works well for the 3.0 ringer circuit, but, I'll make a bigger 15 volt solar powered one for that project.
    If I move the big magnet that is under my transformer coil, it changes the sound and frequency of the ferrite rod's ringing sound. But not much else, at least that I can notice.
   I am not using the diode to the primary negative anymore, as it does discharge the batteries, and have moved it over like LS has it on the positive of the battery connection.  Now the10 led light flickers a bit, like Totoalas, or LS in their videos. The diode can be replaced with an led, which will sometimes light both ways,  strange, and even when just holding one end of it, while the other is connected to the secondary coil side, lights either way (polarity) around also.
  If I place a 47.000 microfarad capacitor as the input source, it will run a single led for about a minute and goes out. This is with an outside earth ground, connected to the same place as is in the LS diagram, but using no AC ground to my circuit, as I see no point in doing that.
  I still only see discharging of my AA batteries, but I know there is some magic to this elusive circuit, if you can find it. So, I'm still playing around with all this, not a done deal, by any means.

  12v solar powered circuits are what I'm after, as I'm trying to light my house, not just make more 1 volt joule thiefs. I already have a bunch of those. I do agree that it's best to use a single AA to perfect this circuit, until we get it right.  But, If there is no outside source of input coming into the device, there is NO way that it will make more juice than it's taking in.  The grid's ground, or neutral connection is not going to help, neither is the phone lines free 110 volts output.  But the phone line lit my house up when the power was out, and can do the same for you. So, keep it in mind... it could come in very handy, one of these days.
  Back to work on the cross over...
                                                         Nick
 


gadgetmall

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #15809 on: November 29, 2012, 12:02:32 AM »
@Gadgetmall... 1n80? I'm redrawing your schematic and .... er..... I can't find a diode with that part number, it comes up as a high voltage mosfet. Did you mean 1n60 or 1n34a, germanium diodes?

The only delay lines I've seen in these modern TVs are very strange slabs of glass with tiny wires bonded to them, I don't understand at all. They are very delicate but I think I didn't destroy this one, but I have no idea how to use it. Nothing I've done to it gives a reaction that I can tell. ADL-CN-336L is the part number, made by Ashai Glass Company in Japan.

What is the part number of the germanium transistors you have? My RM503 scope uses 4 in its preamp. I have a couple of 2n2635s left.... But no, thanks for your kind offer, I'd feel really badly knowing that the transistors cost so much. If you need this silly delay line I'll be happy to give it to you.


@gyulasun: No, in the LS ghostlight/crossover circuit I am using an E-core transformer-type thing from the TV, it has a primary of a smaller number of turns of thick wire like #24 and a lot of turns of very fine wire, #32 or finer. It's wrapped up in plastic tape so I really have no idea of the turns ratio except that there are a lot of the finer wire turns.

I have two of the coils in the resonance video, with the 1:1 windings and rectangular ferrite loops, they work well in basic JTs for LED lighting. I showed the smaller one in the "determining resonance" video. On my ProsKit inductance meter each coil measures about 21 milliHy. This meter is weird though... every time I measure a factory-marked inductor the meter agrees with the marking very closely if not exactly, in all its ranges. When I measure random or home made inductors.... it can be wildly off. I dunno.

My favorite TV coils are the ones with the magnets, as I used in the 4x NE2 JT.



I have two glass germanium diodes . Opps. i know the one with  two lines is 1n60 . i use the one with one line so 1n34a ?

i have bunches of sets of germanium transistors . 100's of them .. from 2n123a up . i only have two if hep638's  ahh 2n1304 06 08's man i got lots of old can germaniums . there was a guy  selling them by lots of 180 at one time . I bought him out all 5 auctions.

TIA for a real schematic tk.

The delay lines are in old color tv's . It is a horizontal  coil wound with wire or there were glass ones also  on the Board and delays the color signal  . i remember them rater big and long though . kind of tapered on the ends. .  i have no idea what you got with a magnet . the only thing i remember after a two year college  coarse is the yoke has ring magnets on it to adjust the convergence Man it was way back in 1979- 1990 . i repairs 1000's of them till the boards became surfacemount and disposable  .. I had filing cabinets full of sam's for most of them. I have forgot most of it .