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Author Topic: Joule Thief  (Read 6276889 times)

conradelektro

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13320 on: April 17, 2010, 10:23:02 AM »
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

crowclaw

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13321 on: April 17, 2010, 05:34:03 PM »
ok, ok.  The Flyback transformer may be a bit overkill.  I am considering it because I don't have access to a 3.5" toroid.  I have a bunch of 1" toroids, and a couple of disposable camera flash transfromers.  hmmmm.  I still don't know how to use the output of the joule thief in my motor.  My third motor's coils have a resistance of 1155ohms. This draws to much from my JTC. I plan on adding a lot more wire when funds allow.   

So in the mean time, I would like to get the Flash transformer to lite a CFL.  I think I can do this.
Hi detrix,

The reason behind using scrap was to save buying materials just to experiment with of course, old scrap power supplies from computers can produce a wealth of goodies including toroid's, scrap AC motors will provide a useful source of copper wire for winding you coils. You can use the ferrite flyback transformers core to wind your own JT! theres so much electronic scrap sent to land fill that your projects could cost next to nothing. Have a good look around. How do you intend to transfer the JT's output to your motor coil, or are you considering  using the coil as an integrated part of the JT circuit?... do you have a schematic for your project for me to look at should you need further help. Last point if you do use any of the flyback transformer windings be very careful of exposed connections!! you don't need EHT voltages

crowclaw

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13322 on: April 17, 2010, 06:12:39 PM »
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad,

To conserve battery power you must work on very short duration pulses, this is where the JT circuit scores. The longer the duty cycle the more current is drawn from your battery due to the longer conduction cycle of your output transistor. If you are still unclear on this let me know. If you progress into the MHz regions you may have trouble with your transistors upper frequency responce!! Most of the types used for JT circuits may struggle. Must point out  should you experiment with circuits using antenna's or similar open loop circuits which are not using straight inductive power transfer techniques, you could end up transmitting powerful radio frequency interference across several broadcast bands and frowned upon by the authorities that monitor such things. Not one to dampen ones experimental challenges of course... just a friendly word of warning.

detrix42

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13323 on: April 17, 2010, 07:45:21 PM »
Hi detrix,

The reason behind using scrap was to save buying materials just to experiment with of course, old scrap power supplies from computers can produce a wealth of goodies including toroid's, scrap AC motors will provide a useful source of copper wire for winding you coils. You can use the ferrite flyback transformers core to wind your own JT! theres so much electronic scrap sent to land fill that your projects could cost next to nothing. Have a good look around. How do you intend to transfer the JT's output to your motor coil, or are you considering  using the coil as an integrated part of the JT circuit?... do you have a schematic for your project for me to look at should you need further help. Last point if you do use any of the flyback transformer windings be very careful of exposed connections!! you don't need EHT voltages

A friend of mine dropped off lots of electronic scrap.  Even a reel-to-reel tape player.  I have not gutted it yet.  There were also several decent sized transformers.  I like recycling electronic parts.

This was my original question.  I am not sure how to transfer the power of the joule thief to my motor.  Even if I do make a JTC similar to Jeanna's Light with 300 turns in the secondary, I don't think I can hook it directly to my motor.  My motor needs DC.  And at startup I need the voltage for about 2 seconds.  Once up and running, I only need the voltage for milliseconds.  I am believing the JTC may not be capable of drive my motor, at least not yet.  Once I have enough wire, where the resistance is high enough to not draw so much currrent from the joule thief, then a JTC might work.

Here is a simple schematic of my motor setup. This may not explain it very well. sorry.

crowclaw

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13324 on: April 17, 2010, 09:00:47 PM »

 I don't think I can hook it directly to my motor.  My motor needs DC.  And at start up I need the voltage for about 2 seconds.  Once up and running, I only need the voltage for milliseconds.  I am believing the JTC may not be capable of drive my motor, at least not yet.  Once I have enough wire, where the resistance is high enough to not draw so much current from the joule thief, then a JTC might work.

Here is a simple schematic of my motor setup. This may not explain it very well. sorry.
Hi detrix,
 Hmmmnn!! what is the total DC resistance of your coil(s) that the HV supply will appear across. I presume the 2 second period is at start up before the motor gains momentum and the rev's increase? wow this is some project!

Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13325 on: April 17, 2010, 09:17:47 PM »
Detrex:

Some of us have run Bedini motors from our JT's.  I have read about Newman motors but do not really understand how they are supposed to work.

It may be possible to dump the ac spikes from the JT into a very large Farad cap (I have used two 10 farad caps and later a 650 farad cap for this purpose) which will convert (or appear to convert) the spikes into usable power for your motor.  Now if you need to rectify it before the cap or not, I do not really know.  I didn't have to with the Bedini but, as I said, I am not sure what your motor really needs.

Bill

resonanceman

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13326 on: April 17, 2010, 11:10:37 PM »
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

conradelektro

I think  you  are on the right  track with the  your duty cycle ideas......

The  JT isn't  good at making  " normal " electricity.

It is  good  at making  spikes...... 

These spikes  are  what Tesla  was using in many of his  experments.
Tesla often  talked  about  disruptive discharge.....  we have an easier way  to make the spikes.........or impulses.

In my opinion   we need to focus  more on how to effectively  use the spikes........and how to  transform  the spikes into  " normal "  electricity.
So far  using the spikes  to charge  a battery seems to  be the most practical way to go.

gary




crowclaw

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13327 on: April 17, 2010, 11:11:29 PM »
@ detrix

I have taken a look at your video and I go with Bill on this, storing the DC charge is the issue here. What is the current draw to run your motor with your present set up? You  need 1000 volts!! so you need some hefty caps that have to be both charged  and be capable of  delivering their charge within your time frame. We need to know what current demand is required at your target voltage to get an idea of what can be the best approach.

resonanceman

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13328 on: April 17, 2010, 11:14:08 PM »
To Resonanceman,

thank you for your hints on air coils, very interesting, I have to try the twisted wire. There is so much experience with JTs out there in this forum, great!

The following idea is going around in my head:

In order to keep the energy consumption of a Joule Thief down one should go for very short duty cycles over the LEDs (or any lamps one wants to light up). See the attached drawing.

Very short pulses, even spikes might be good, but with high frequency in the Megahertz.

This might best be achieved with a secondary which has no connection with the circuit (besides induction and resonance). As I see from other folks posts, the secondary was the big progress with the JTs.

And for high frequency the air coil comes into play because of its low inductance. It is also nice to get rid of the Toroid because good ones are hard to come by.

May be I am on the wrong track with the "duty cycles" and would like to hear comments from the master JT builders?

Greetings, Conrad

conradelektro

I think  you  are on the right  track with the  your duty cycle ideas......

The  JT isn't  good at making  " normal " electricity.

It is  good  at making  spikes...... 

These spikes  are  what Tesla  was using in many of his  experments.
Tesla often  talked  about  disruptive discharge.....  we have an easier way  to make the spikes.........or impulses.

In my opinion   we need to focus  more on how to effectively  use the spikes........and how to  transform  the spikes into  " normal "  electricity.
So far  using the spikes  to charge  a battery seems to  be the most practical way to go.

gary


Edit

About  the frequency........ It is true that  a JT running  at Mhz speeds  would   be able to  create alot more power than  a slower JT.
The problem is  RF transmition. ....... The higher  the frequency ........or the power ......the more  ANY wire will tend to act as a transmitting  antenna. .........  I don't know about you....but I don't like the idea  of the FCC knocking on my door.




Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13329 on: April 18, 2010, 01:58:01 AM »
Gary:

So, that is who those people were that were knocking on my door.... ha ha. (Just kidding)  But, you are exactly right.  If we get up into the higher freqs who knows what disturbances we might be making?  This is always a good thing to keep in mind.  Telling the FCC that we had no idea this was happening is probably not enough to keep out of trouble.

Bill

sparks

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13330 on: April 18, 2010, 02:19:11 AM »
  Here is a great application for a Jule Thief.  Your battery is dead in your auto.  You hit the I shouldnt of left the headlights on switch.  The julethief charges up an auxiillary bank of series connected supercaps from your dead battery.  Initial current surge to your starter motor is what does the trick.  After the initial surge the resistance of the copper chokes off the current due to conductor heating.  Unless the motor is revolving and some counter rotating magnetic field generation to drop off the current levels needed from the battery its a case of diminishing returns and out comes the triple a card.

detrix42

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13331 on: April 18, 2010, 06:08:30 AM »
@ detrix

I have taken a look at your video and I go with Bill on this, storing the DC charge is the issue here. What is the current draw to run your motor with your present set up? You  need 1000 volts!! so you need some hefty caps that have to be both charged  and be capable of  delivering their charge within your time frame. We need to know what current demand is required at your target voltage to get an idea of what can be the best approach.

I really appreciate the help.  First, the schematic below was suggested to me by Jadaro2600, and I think this is what you are suggesting I need.

The second schematic show how I now have it.  Just a slight difference.  For the Cap on the right, I have tried several sizes -- 68uF, 330uF. 

Joseph Newman's theory:  The magnetic field in a inductor/coil, is the result of aligning the atoms in the wire.  Voltage is the force that is aligning the atoms, not current.  There are three ways of generating larger magnetic fields.  Add more voltage, or add more atoms/wire, or both.

Joseph Newman's first motor consisted of over 4000lbs of copper wire.  With this much copper wire, only 1 1/2 watts of power (I think he said there was about 60+ volts), was needed to turn a 600lb magnet!!!!

I am on my third build.  The first one has been disassembled, to use the wire on motor #3.  I have been using some of the wire from build #2 to make Joule Thiefs, and recently rebuilt #2 to show a friend, but I don't plan on keeping it.  Currently, the coils on #3 have a total DC resistance of 1155ohms.  Each pound of 30awg wire is about 700ohms.  What I am trying to prove with my motor, is whether or not Newman is correct about only needing voltage.  So a high voltage should get motor #3 really spinning.  I will accept any help to get 500v or more.  Once I start adding more wire, I should be fine with less than 1000v.  But I do want to know how to get 1000+ out of any of the transformers I have.

Again Thanks for all the help.

detrix42

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13332 on: April 18, 2010, 06:14:21 AM »
Detrex:

Some of us have run Bedini motors from our JT's.  I have read about Newman motors but do not really understand how they are supposed to work.

It may be possible to dump the ac spikes from the JT into a very large Farad cap (I have used two 10 farad caps and later a 650 farad cap for this purpose) which will convert (or appear to convert) the spikes into usable power for your motor.  Now if you need to rectify it before the cap or not, I do not really know.  I didn't have to with the Bedini but, as I said, I am not sure what your motor really needs.

Bill

@Pirate:  How long does it take to charge up the 650 farad cap?  or the 10 farad cap?  And how much does a 10 farad 500v supercap cost?

zhak

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13333 on: April 19, 2010, 08:27:35 PM »
Hello everyone ..
 new design of my lamp JT (lamp stands for point lights), in fact, he shines so much better when there is no substitute for light paraffin candle at 200%.
This can give or sell ! :)

Pirate88179

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Re: Jule Thief
« Reply #13334 on: April 19, 2010, 10:08:11 PM »
zhak:

Nicely done.

Bill