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Author Topic: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods  (Read 220630 times)

Offline Thaelin

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2008, 06:25:14 AM »
    There seems to be one thing about these magnets that all are not catching.
Now I am not going to say it doesnot work, it does. The actual make up of the
metal backing is a trade secret for sure. They will tell you so.
    The part missed is the make up of the magnet its self. This type of magnet
has 4 poles. Example below:

                 NNNNNSSSSS
                 SSSSSNNNNN
           XXXXMETAL-BACKINGXXXX

    This makes one side of the circuit complete and the other open. Take 4 mags
and make the setup as above and stick to a backing plate. With standard metal
you will still have some attraction to the back side but very little. I used a 1/16"
galvanized metal for the backer and 4 grade 8 mags.

thaelin

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #75 on: November 28, 2008, 06:25:14 AM »

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #76 on: November 28, 2008, 07:15:06 AM »
Hi folks, hi Gyula. That explains it, I was never able to see that website because I discovered the forum thread apparently too late, always wondered why my registering to his site went nowhere. i assume his pulse motor forum is dead now. Anyway, I am setting up a prony brake bar to test it so I should soon have an idea of the efficiency. Although It must be said as im sure your aware, that because it uses both coil poles and has absolutely no back attraction to cores or any collapsing field effects causing drag (back emf) and limits the collapsing spike which is nice for keeping transistors alive. Now i cant say for sure that it lessens lentz (cemf) however i have noticed i can bring a cap thats being charged from collapsing field lower in voltage than in most pulse motors ive built which may indicate less counter voltage being induced. Also if your aware of a motor called kawai motor, its efficiency which is claimed to be at least 315% derives its efficiency mainly from the fact that it cancels the flux of the stator coil that its leaving by diverting it away by energizing the next coil ahead eliminating drag back. Now isnt that what Garrys pulse motor does while still maintaining high density flux for coil attraction, unless a ferro core is needed to get the extra output seen in the kawai motor but if not then i would say garrys pulse motor probably is 200% at least based on this knowledge. Even the muller motor uses the same idea to get the extra output, eliminate the work required to move a magnet pole around. the difference here i think is that with garys design we can get practical torque levels by having that compressed permanent magnet field such that any other geometry would not be adequate to produce useful levels of shaft power.

peace, love, light   

Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2008, 07:41:05 AM »
Thanks for the correction Thaelin. SkyWatcher, keep us updated.

Ok, so I guess we need more than just Mu-Metal to block a magnetic field. A magnet that sticks on one side and not the other is called a Halbach array after the name of the inventor.

Here is a link on how to build one. This could be very useful in any motor or maybe even a transformer design. I didn't realize you could setup magnets in a way that "blocked" the magnetic field only on one side. If you place one of these magnet arrays on a motor, it will have a tendency to spin longer than if you don't have a magnet. This is a form of free mechanical power.

http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #77 on: November 28, 2008, 07:41:05 AM »
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Offline elektromann

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #78 on: November 28, 2008, 11:32:57 AM »
@nali
it take only 10 or 20 watts, because it must not deliver any outut in electric or mechanic output !
EM

Offline khabe

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2008, 01:10:44 PM »
Lenz's Law states:
An electromagnetic field interacting with a conductor will generate electrical current that induces a counter magnetic field that opposes the magnetic field generating the current.

A more elaborate experiment that demonstrates the same scientific principles can be done with a solenoid wrapped around a pop can. When the switch is closed. a capacitor in the circuit is discharged through the solenoid. Since the current varies in time, the magnetic field in the solenoid and the magnetic flux defined in the solenoid will vary in time. This variable flux also passes through the can inside the solenoid, inducing in it a current in opposite direction of the current through the solenoid (Lenz's Law). The two antiparallel currents repel each other, and since the solenoid is fixed the can will be crushed.

khabe

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #79 on: November 28, 2008, 01:10:44 PM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #80 on: November 28, 2008, 03:41:13 PM »
   If the lines of force from a pm are bent away into a magnetic shielding material like zinc or lead or the special stuff on the back of speakers and there is a slot in this material that forms a rotor what happens now.  The stator laminations have to be such that the steel transmits the magnetic energy and after that returns to magnetic polarization depending on the Earth's magnetic field.  This would entail attention to the retaintence of the core.   This overunity effect has already been done many times with a flyback transformer.  300volts in ballasted 30kv out.  The free energy is in the draw from the magnetic energy of the Earth or whatever demagnitises the core of the flyback.  Just a matter of what you do with that 30kv potential you get in reactive energy that does not come at the expense of the input pulses. 

Offline Paul-R

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2008, 03:42:23 PM »

1. Moving magnetic fields create electrical current....
Many believe that there is no real distinction between a current and a
magnetic field. They are like opposite sides of the same coin. If you
have one, there will be the other lurking about somewhere.
Paul.

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #81 on: November 28, 2008, 03:42:23 PM »
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Offline Kator01

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #82 on: November 28, 2008, 04:20:15 PM »
Hi Supermuble,

yes correct. This is Steve Gillis and you are right, this is where I read his statement that he believes a certain type of magneto-design used in Ford T - Model ( 1930 I guess ) has a good chance to OU-Output. In this german Journal
there was some statement from Ford-Management that he mentioned - at the verge of the struggle for power by the bankers ( Gas versus electricity- Tesla ) that Ford would be able to run the car on electricity alone ( of this magneto delivering up to 40 Horespowers ) and leave the Gas-Bankers alone. You have to know that this magneto had a double-function : it worked as an alternator and an ignition-system.

But please again, look at power-output of the magneto versus a standard-ignition-system. This tells the story.
Why I was posting this : It is directly linked to Thanes development and to this topic here

@BEP : If you talk about phase-shift here we have to destingiuish between primary and secondary coil. If you use a saw-tooth signal as driver-signal on  primary of a flyback - as I said - the slow ascending slope will give time enough for the current to rise. I have tested this. If you switch on a  primary with a rectangular wave you will observe a 45 Degree falling-slope of the voltage at the primary. This means - no current-full voltage at start. If the end  of ths triagle is reached - current is at the maximum. This maximum can be controled by the time the sawtooth is switched on and the voltage-level of the sypply and the saturation-level of the core. Now you counteract this behaviour of a rectangular waveform with a sawtooth. You do not switch voltage instantly to full level but slowly in a 45 degree slope to give the current time to reach its maximum.After the sawtooth has suddenly switched off the magnetic orientation of the ferrite-elements return back - as sparks said it already - and you have a very high Voltage at the secondary which - when under load - can not communicate its kickback-force to the sender ( controller ) at the primary - as it is switched off.
Now I hope you get the point : You can control this by the on-off-ratio and the puls-width of the sawtooth. If the ratio is - let say 20 % - there might be a chance that the kickback runs into the next following sawtooth-pattern.

Now back to the magneto : The configuration of the german website is the one in my favour because this principle here is the mechanical interrupter which cuts of the current in the primary at a certain angle-position and thus works close to what I have described above.

http://www.motoruf.de/mo/info/Arbeitsweise_der_Zuendanlage.php

Just look at the pic below the Heading :
"ARBEITSWEISE DER TECUMSEH-MAGNETZÃœNDUNG "

It is almost the same configuration of  the presnet coil-design of Thanes Perepiteia.

I am really sorry - but I could not find any english website presenting this very information. But I will try - if there is time - to translate this into english and present it here.

@BEP : Look at the attached pic. Here I performed the cap-switch-experiment of user nul_points. You can see
the full level of voltage in the beginning and then the slope-down as current increases which reflects itself due to the coil-resistance as voltage-drop.

I will present another scopeshot of the scame circuit at the same moment of time - in the next post - of the current-rising-up at  2-ohm-Resistor placed in the source of the Mosfet-switch.

Regards

Kator01

Offline Kator01

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2008, 04:30:19 PM »
Hi BEP,

here is the other pic of current rising up.


Regards

Kator01


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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2008, 04:30:19 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2008, 05:21:56 PM »

Now back to the magneto : The configuration of the german website is the one in my favour because this principle here is the mechanical interrupter which cuts of the current in the primary at a certain angle-position and thus works close to what I have described above.

http://www.motoruf.de/mo/info/Arbeitsweise_der_Zuendanlage.php

Just look at the pic below the Heading :
"ARBEITSWEISE DER TECUMSEH-MAGNETZÃœNDUNG "

It is almost the same configuration of  the presnet coil-design of Thanes Perepiteia.

I am really sorry - but I could not find any english website presenting this very information. But I will try - if there is time - to translate this into english and present it here.



Hi Folks,

Here is a google translation from German to English,  much better than guessing:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.motoruf.de%2Fmo%2Finfo%2FArbeitsweise_der_Zuendanlage.php&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=de&tl=en

rgds,  Gyula

Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2008, 05:59:21 PM »
Kator01, thanks for the information. Come to think of it, it is weird that we don't use magneto's more often, since they seem to be pretty reliable. According to the graph, the faster you move the flywheel, the higher output you get. I can understand that if you spark a battery with high voltage (not high current) it will not explode since there is no hydrogen bubbles, and it will charge very fast when conditioned to accept high voltage (Bedini charging). But looking at the diagrams, it appears that Lenz's law applies to the configuration of the Magneto, and it is doubtful that it would work any other way since there is a forced change in magnetic flux that has to occur, meaning mechanical drag?  ???



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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2008, 05:59:21 PM »
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Offline supermuble

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2008, 06:00:39 PM »
Khabe, good experiment! That must be the basis for inductive heating?

Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2008, 06:40:12 PM »
@Kator01

Vielen Dank für die ausführliche erklärung. Mein Deutsch ist nicht perfekt, aber in der Regel gut genug beim Lesen. Mein problem ist, habe ich gelernt, Platt mehr als Deutsch.

Most of my time was at the Schlewsig Detachment and Magdeburg (before the iron curtain fell) and that was over 30 years ago (ASA/INSCOM/MI). So I embarrass myself when I try conversing. I avoid it. My wife says I sometimes speak like her Opa in my sleep. He was from Lübeck. I almost stayed.

I can't disagree with your last posts. When conductor current is the question I have no doubt current and potential reach the end of a wire at the same time. So it shows on my best scope (Textronix 7904A). I also think sawtooth must be considered because this is used in TV sets.

Now when it comes to an open circuit things change a bit. Here arguments begin but what I see is current still flows but no more than hitting a water hose with pressure with the far end valved off.

The magic seems to happen when you do as SM stated.... cancel the flux. Then there is nothing opposing the impulse (no CEMF). Another benefit is if you build a coil to cancel the flux you are also building the foundations for extremely low resonance of that coil.

When I saw the benefits is flux cancellation I dropped sawtooth as there was no need for that ramp.

As far as the kick being perpendicular induction - perhaps. When done this is the result more of wire cross-sectional mass and the number of wire crossings than length or inductance. It also leads directly to DC output when you include rotation.

Offline BEP

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2008, 08:16:21 PM »
In discussion of the magneto please be aware the most power producing function is this:

When the rotating magnet creates a flux circuit between the left and middle core parts this is like stacking a pile of bricks higher than normal.
When that same magnet then builds a flux circuit between the middle and right core parts it is reversing the previous polarity causing that high stack of bricks to fall. This reversal or 'fall' is more energetic. This creates the higher output of voltage AND energy as compared to simply applying the magnet , off and on, to a two pole core.

I believe @Sparks described it better. Basically there are more magnetic domains to flip during that reversal. This as opposed to a common spark ignition coil having voltage applied and removed to create flyback for spark.

Yes, this man was a genius.

If you want similar performance from a common ignition coil - I suppose you could hit the primary with alternating pulses (crossing zero) but then you would need a way to stop CEMF during half the cycle, like the 'points' do in the magneto.



Offline khabe

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Re: Canceling Lenz's Law - Methods
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2008, 09:26:36 PM »
Khabe, good experiment! That must be the basis for inductive heating?

Yes - Lenz´s Law explanes Eddy current ... Eddy losses ...Eddy brake ... Eddy clutch ... induction furnace ... etg ...
But actual animation ... when all posts about OU´s have been readed then ... it must to be an brilliant OU  :o
Beer can will be deformed when capacitor dicharged.
When this aluminum can restores his form - it does! - it charges through coil the capacitor newly ... and then capacitor dicharges and can will be deformed ... and so on up to end of world  ::)
No ???
OK - but why most of similar and much more stupid chemes we can found must to work?  Like motor-generator owerunity or selfrunning_waterwheel_generator_pump wheres much more losses than in this simple cheme ;)
regards,
khabe

 

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